Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Post by xng »

Yeleixingfeng wrote:Rea

Indeed, as stated by xng, a lot of my friends are oblivious to the Malay borrows in Hokkien*, like lui(duit), ga-lo(gaduh), kau-eng(kahwin)** and ciah-hong (makan angin).

* not sure about the previous generation
** some say it is 媾姻. I don't know. Haha.
It seems that there are a lot of arrogant and rude people in this forum bad-mouthing me during my long stay away from this forum ? Even when what I am trying to do is educate the people on the origins of the so-called 'hokkien' words but NOBODY here thanked me ? :shock:

媾姻 is a borrowed word just like 巴剎 (pasar) is a borrowed word bcos most people in the past had poor command of the hokkien (or any chinese dialects for that matter as it was deemed useless when compared to English/malay in the past before the rise of china after the 1990s). And TV media was only prominent during the last 50 years or so, even then it was restricted to mandarin and cantonese dialects.

by the way, 媾 is pronounced 'kio' and not 'kau'. If you watch taiwanese hokkien shows, the most common usage for divorce is 'li ien' 離緣 but 'li hoon' is not wrong either.

So one error gets 'inherited' through several generations. words such as 'suka', 'pasar' substituted the real hokkien words for generations that they have forgotten about the original word. Penang hokkien were more 'malaynised' than singapore hokkien with additional words such as 'batu' when they use 'cio thau'. With the advent of taiwanese hokkien shows, we hope that more and more people realise this fact.

食風 is NOT borrowed from Malay, rather the malay borrowed from chinese. cantonese also use 'sik fung'.
http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictio ... ?full=true

sadly, most malaysian chinese hokkien (especially those english ed) can't distinguish which are hokkien, malay or english words as it is one big rojak.

Malaysian cantonese has less malay words as I think it is because of better cantonese penetration in the media.

As you rightly pointed out, 鐳 is actually for radium.
金 is for the metal element, 雷 is for the sound 'lui'.

There is absolutely no basis for this as I have repeatedly pointed out, it comes from the malay word 'duit' and since chinese can't pronounce 'd' initial consonant, it is approximated into 'l'. It is also similar to 'durian' which is approximated to 'liu lien' and not 'du lien'.

The next thing I will hear from 'intelligent' people here is that 'liu lien' originated from hokkien too because it starts with 'l' and not 'd' ! :lol: furthermore, it is published in chinese newspaper as 'liu lien' with chinese characters.

Even malaysian cantonese uses 'lui' but if you were to go to china guangdong province, NONE of the natives there know what 'lui' is.

I just browsed through my old nemesis ah bin silly and stupid argument again. The 'lui' sound is so entrenched in malaysia and indonesia that it is even put as an entry in a recent dictionary but why is it that this word (meaning money) cannot be found in china's dictionary before the Ming dynasty and before the chinese came to SEA which is 15th century and earlier ? There's your answer.

I can also put 'pasar' in a hokkien dictionary :lol: since it is published everyday in chinese newspapers in malaysia but that doesn't mean 'pasar' originated from hokkien or even mandarin. It actually originated from malay word 'pasar' which the malay borrowed from the arab 'bazaar'.
Last edited by xng on Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
xng
Posts: 386
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Post by xng »

amhoanna wrote:I mostly ignored xng's posts. His single-minded point of view actually had little or nothing to do with Hokkien -- a language he didn't speak and wasn't trying to learn. .
I think I can speak better hokkien than most people in this forum. What makes you so sure that I don't speak hokkien and wasn't trying to learn ? Have you met me before ? By the way, I have been speaking hokkien since I was a small child.

I am also learning new hokkien words everyday from watching taiwanese hokkien shows everyday. I can even confidently say at this point in time I can converse at an intermediate level with a native taiwanese without mixing malay or english words.

Sadly, most malaysians can only speak at the 'beginner' level.(including your beloved Ah-bin)

To make such a narrow minded statement without substantiating it just goes to show how narrow minded, rude and DUMB you are (which puts you in the same group as Ah-bin) ! :roll:
Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Post by Ah-bin »

Looks like you're back from cutting and pasting to the China History Forum......

xng wrote (dec 23 2010):
The northerners create 'Lang' character because that's how it sounds to them with a 人農 sound but that's not the original character. At that time in middle chinese, the sound has changed to 'Yin'. The original character is a simple 人, that's how 'man' was written 5000 years ago.
You made this up, just admit it for goodness sake. You make up stories about things to prove your point, and never ever admit that you are wrong about anything.
Even malaysian cantonese uses 'lui' but if you were to go to china guangdong province, NONE of the natives there know what 'lui' is.
Rubbish, they do, they just have a different meaning for it. Copper coin. I never said it didn't come from Malay. So you are lying if you imply that I did.
Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Post by Ah-bin »

Xng wrote
食風 is NOT borrowed from Malay, rather the malay borrowed from chinese. cantonese also use 'sik fung'.

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictio ... ?full=true
Care to click on the little link to the full entry? Or did you just hope we would miss it?

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictio ... rds/15681/

Little writing underneath says:
[2] calque from Malay "Makan Angin"

Another one of xng's greatest hits! Ah, you do make or lives so interesting!
Ah-bin
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Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Post by Ah-bin »

xng wrote
I think I can speak better hokkien than most people in this forum. What makes you so sure that I don't speak hokkien and wasn't trying to learn ? Have you met me before ?
Perhaps the fact that you still haven't even mastered the most basic rudiments of any Hokkien romanisation system, that does tend to make people wonder....

xng wrote
By the way, I have been speaking hokkien since I was a small child.
Oh, you must have only been learning it for one or two years then.
amhoanna
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Post by amhoanna »

Xng, hoanngiả lứ tuínn ·lải. Lứ cịt'ẹ tuínn, tạkgẻ lóng piàn ka' oạ'thiàuthiàu ·khílải. Ǹgbạng thiann lứ kạ tạkgẻ kàisiạu lứlảng Kitlongphơ / Pasang te' kóng ẻ Hokkiàn'oẹ. Lứ nạ be'ài, goá ũ be' kạ lứ hunhióng Ỏng Lẻ sớ cècok Huilịppin Họ'ló'oẹ ẻ lọk'im, liáu'ạu chéngkàu ·lứ khoànn he hảm lứlảng te' kóng ẻ Họ'ló'oẹ ũ hámi' sio kảng a'sĩ hámi' bỏ kảng.
Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Post by Yeleixingfeng »

... Okay.....

Xng, since you are back...

I must admit, I was quite disappointed when you said 食風 in the sense of travelling is Sintic. 吃西北風 itself evidently proves that the concept of wind-eating originally registered on a negative connotation. Much like how Bees are symbols of diligence; lotus are symbols of purity.. Wind-eating indirectly depicts how someone is so poor that he can only eat "wind".

Anyway, I'm sure you know that...
siamiwako
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Post by siamiwako »

aokh1979 wrote:Samseng does sound Chinese to me, and it's connected to 3 sacrifices to God in the ancient time, according to some old folks in Penang. However, it is unknown to Hokkien in China, as far as I check. Maybe some people do, I dunno.
Yes, this is still practised by Chinese Filipinos in Philippines. I've seen a few times during 七月半 3 sacrifices were offered to 好兄弟 anything that has meat.
Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Post by Ah-bin »

xng wrote:
Even malaysian cantonese uses 'lui' but if you were to go to china guangdong province, NONE of the natives there know what 'lui' is.
This was bugging me, because I knew somewhere earlier I had found evidence to the contrary
Sorry to re-quote myself, but I couldn't track down the pdf of this book, I think it is on my computer at home. Now again, note that I am not saying that lui is a native Chinese word, just that the above statement that NONE of the natives will understand is simply untrue. If he had said "NONE of the natives of Canton" that would be more accurate. Lui is known many localities in Kwangtung province, however.
by Ah-bin » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:32 pm

Lui is recorded in the 漢語方言大詞典 (p.7402) as a word for a copper coin 銅鐳 in Kaiping 開平, Huizhou 惠州 (in Hakka) Jieyang 揭陽 and in Teochiu, as well as in Amoy as a general word for money. From asking around I found out in Liuzhou 柳州 (Guangxi) 銅鐳 was the word for copper coins too.
Then tonight I found two more nice references, both from within Kwangtung, one for varieties of Hakka where the meaning is "copper coin" and also a slang term for money. It is interesting that they have their
From 羅美珍 客家話通用辭典 p.110
From 羅美珍 客家話通用辭典 p.110
Hakka p. 110.JPG (94.7 KiB) Viewed 56974 times
and the other is from a survey of Chinese vocabulary published in 1988, which gives "lui" as the only word for money in Teochew, so it must have been in fairly common use when the survey was made.

The 19th century dictionary of Swatow I have doesn't have "lui" at all for money, which suggests the word was borrowed within the last century, I'm guessing the fifty years 1890-1940.

I find it fascinating how widespread the word became in China. The Hakka example is interesting too, because Moi-yen Hakka makes a distinction between chhian-e 錢仔 (a copper coin with a hole) and lui-e 鐳仔 (a copper coin without a hole). Hui-chou 惠州 Hakka uses lui for both. This must have passed out of use by now, since China no longer uses copper coins of any kind, and I doubt that there are many people alive who remember the copper cash issued by the Ch'ing! MacIver's Hakka-English Dictionary (1920?) doesn't have Lui so perhaps it was the 20's or 30's when the word became popular, perhaps with the advent of western, hole-less style coinage.
Attachments
from 漢語方言詞彙 p. 218
from 漢語方言詞彙 p. 218
Money in Chinese.JPG (203.23 KiB) Viewed 56974 times
amhoanna
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Post by amhoanna »

In Panama Spanish slang, the word for MONEY is "chen chen". :P
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