Different variants of minnan

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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aokh1979
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Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by aokh1979 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:37 am

xng wrote: We are not talking about intelligent people like you or the many linguists here who are obviously, above average in IQ.

We are talking about the average person who even have trouble grasping one language let alone so many variants.

You cannot quote yourself as an example of 'average' person. Few people in Malaysia can write as well as you or the members in this forum in English.
Let's make sure we know where we're heading to. If I am not mistaken, our discussion began with "parents in Xiamen refuse to converse with children in Xiamen variant". Let's not confuse ourselves here. Frankly, I do mean average people. If Hokkien speakers ourselves do not take pride in the variant we grow up with, it is for sure that we don't expect any newcomer to do so.

The biggest question mark I have in this topic is, under what circumstances will one be confused by variants in Hokkien ? If one tries to pick up Hokkien, he or she must be either interested in it, or is living in a Hokkien-speaking region. If he or she just happens to like the language, I am sure variants will just make them feel more excited. If he or she lives in a Hokkien-speaking region, why are they not treating local variant the "standard" ?

Secondly, what exactly is the major difference we see from Hokkien variants ? I personally thought we were talking about i being u, e being ue, iunn being ionn, etc. Those actually have a pattern to follow. British, American and Australian English actually sound like 3 different languages to a newcomer. I live with Chinese people who never go overseas, who have very limited exposure to English variants. One thing I know, most people in Xiamen learn American variant. When they leave school, they will be facing hearing problem when they try to watch a British or Australian movie. Unless they're still not ready in the language, or they should be able to pick up 70% and spend more effort to fill up the missing 30%. That's my personal thought.

If one tries to learn Hokkien, again, please learn the variant one is most likely going to come in contact with. If he or she lives in Zhangzhou, please don't bother about Xiamen or Quanzhou before he or she is ready to speak. When he or she is ready, I don't think absorbing the remaining differences in other variants will be any burden.
Ah-bin
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Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by Ah-bin » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:34 pm

Ah bin, please keep to a civilised discussion or do you want this forum to be a name-calling game just because you disagree with me.
I don't recall calling anyone names....or complaining about how other people choose to speak their Hokkien
Andrew

Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by Andrew » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:44 pm

Nice to see such an active discussion.

I agree that intelligibility is all about exposure: after all, look at the number of Malaysian Hokkiens who can understand and even speak Cantonese simply from watching HK films. The differences between Ciangciu (C). and Cuanciu (Cn). may be overwhelming at first, but the differences between either variant and Amoy (A) or Taiwanese (Formosan - I'm using Douglas' abbreviations because T is Tongan) are not very great. A and F are not the same because both are combinations of C and Cn made in different places.

By the way, does anyone else feel that ə and ɯ are contagious? Having been exposed to non-Penang variants, when I do not actively try to form a proper o or u, I find it hard not to slip into these sounds. I am aware that there is some relevant theory in linguistics about schwas.

If an outsider wanted to learn Hokkien, definitely he should learn A or F unless he has greater access to another variant. But if he is going to be based in Penang or Cn, then I agree he should learn those languages. But everyone should be taught at least to understand the 'prestige variant'. In Germany, Switzerland and Austria everyone learns standard High German, but the local dialects are alive and well.

Has anyone seen http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=127682672520
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Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by hohomi » Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:31 pm

Andrew wrote: A and F are not the same because both are combinations of C and Cn made in different places.
You are assuming that there is only one accent in Taiwan. That is not the case.
The diversity of accents in Taiwan a few decades ago was just as great as that of today's Fujian. If you look up a word in 台灣閩南語常用詞辭典, you may find many kinds of pronunciations of it. Tainan(台南) variant is closer to "Zhangzhou" than Xiamen is. However, Taipei(台北) variant is nearly exactly the same as Xiamen. (A good way to listen to this variant is to see the following two movies:海角七號 and Monga. Listen to what 代表會主席 and Geta大的 say. The actor is from 台北縣. He is accent is exactly a Xiamen accent except for one character "縣" which is read "kuan" in Taiwan and "kuaiN" in Xiamen.)

Anyway, the differences between Xiamen, Taipei and Tainan are so small. Smaller than the differences between Xiamen and Zhangzhou or between Xiamen and Quanzhou.
xng
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Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by xng » Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:53 pm

hohomi wrote:
Anyway, the differences between Xiamen, Taipei and Tainan are so small. Smaller than the differences between Xiamen and Zhangzhou or between Xiamen and Quanzhou.
To you it may be small, but to an outsider, it is not.

Taiwan say Kay, Say, Bay etc whereas Xiamen say Kue, Sue, Bue etc so this is a major difference itself.

I would say Taiwan is truly a Quanzhou and Zhangzhou mix (after learning from you guys) but xiamen is closer to Quanzhou than zhangzhou.

Taiwan is closer to Quanzhou in the neng, seng, heng sounds etc while it is closer to zhangzhou in the kay, say, bay sounds etc.
Andrew

Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by Andrew » Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:58 pm

Although I've heard that the only place in Taiwan that maintains the C -ui* sound is Gilan, in the northeast of the island. The rest of Taiwan uses the A/Cn -ng sound in mng, sng, tng, etc.
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Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by hohomi » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:42 pm

xng wrote:Taiwan say Kay, Say, Bay etc whereas Xiamen say Kue, Sue, Bue etc so this is a major difference itself.
As I said, Taipei variant is the same as Xiamen : kue,sue,bue (listen to 馬如龍 ). So, you can't actually say Taiwan variant is ke,se,be.
xng wrote:To you it may be small, but to an outsider, it is not.
It is true. But, even if you only watch Taiwanese TV programmes and listen to pop music produced in Taiwan, you can hear both variants. It is really hard to find a pop song produced in Taiwan in which only the Zhangzhou variant is used when Zhangzhou is "e" and Quanzhou is "ue". I can easily find one using both variants. But, Xiamenese only use "ue" when Zhangzhou is "e" and Quanzhou is "ue". That's why Xiamen is one variant but Taiwanese has many variants in itself.
Andrew

Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by Andrew » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:49 am

hohomi wrote:It is true. But, even if you only watch Taiwanese TV programmes and listen to pop music produced in Taiwan, you can hear both variants. It is really hard to find a pop song produced in Taiwan in which only the Zhangzhou variant is used when Zhangzhou is "e" and Quanzhou is "ue". I can easily find one using both variants. But, Xiamenese only use "ue" when Zhangzhou is "e" and Quanzhou is "ue". That's why Xiamen is one variant but Taiwanese has many variants in itself.
Is there a 'prestige' variant in Taiwan? For example, what would a foreigner studying 'Taiwanese' overseas learn? Taipak or Tailam?
xng
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Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by xng » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:05 am

hohomi wrote: As I said, Taipei variant is the same as Xiamen : kue,sue,bue (listen to 馬如龍 ). So, you can't actually say Taiwan variant is ke,se,be.
I watched a lot of taiwanese shows and hear a lot of taiwanese songs. Most (if not all) say Ke, Se, Be and NOT Kue, Sue, Bue.

I am particularly attentive to the way they speak.

So I think this is the standard for Taiwanese regardless of how a small minority speak in Taiwan.
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Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by hohomi » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:15 am

xng wrote:I watched a lot of taiwanese shows and hear a lot of taiwanese songs. Most (if not all) say Ke, Se, Be and NOT Kue, Sue, Bue.
Can you find me one or two songs with only the variant with "ke","se","se"?
Andrew

Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by Andrew » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:53 am

Are you guys talking about the same rime?

雞細買 or 過稅未
hohomi
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Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by hohomi » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:10 am

Andrew wrote:Are you guys talking about the same rime?
雞細買 or 過稅未
http://blog.yam.com/joshua_yap/article/20001749
xng
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Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by xng » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:59 pm

hohomi wrote:
xng wrote:I watched a lot of taiwanese shows and hear a lot of taiwanese songs. Most (if not all) say Ke, Se, Be and NOT Kue, Sue, Bue.
Can you find me one or two songs with only the variant with "ke","se","se"?
It took me almost an hour to search in youtube.

李聖傑 叫阮的名 ( I choose him because he has a very clear voice)

當初細漢 Tong Co Se Han

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-jieoRksWc

蔡小虎-買醉的人

等出賣 - Tang Cut Be
過去的人 - Kue Ki E Lang

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osvt2nhx ... re=related
Last edited by xng on Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
xng
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Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by xng » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:01 pm

Andrew wrote:Are you guys talking about the same rime?

雞細買 or 過稅未
In zhangzhou, it is Ke, Se, Be and Kue, Sue, Bue

In quanzhou, it is Kue, Sue, Bue and Kə, ?, Bə
hohomi
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Re: Pronounciation of 還 - Return

Post by hohomi » Sun Apr 04, 2010 1:37 pm

xng wrote: 蔡小虎-買醉的人
等出賣 - Tang Cut Be
過去的人 - Kue Ki E Lang
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osvt2nhx ... re=related
Taipei variant is chosen at the following places:
眼前分袜(bue)清
风尘作(tsue)伴
作(tsue)伤心梦
They should be "be","tso","tso" in the Tainan variant.
xng wrote: 李聖傑 叫阮的名 ( I choose him because he has a very clear voice)
當初細漢 Tong Co Se Han
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-jieoRksWc
The original version is sung by 巫啟賢. In that version, the Taipei variant is chosen at all places where a choice is needed to be made.
细漢(sue) 袂(bue)赴 做(tsue)伴
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7QsAadOO3c

True. 李聖傑's version is closer to Tainan variant.
However, in 李聖傑's version, 性(siN)命 is of Taipei variant because in Tainan variant it is 性(seN)命.
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