Singular root of lán?

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Abun
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Singular root of lán?

Postby Abun » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:09 am


amhoanna
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby amhoanna » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:24 am

I notice he published this in 1986, during the Dark Ages of Hoklology. I doubt the good professor believes any of that anymore.



"Lán" is interesting. What we need are comparative forms from as far and wide as poss. Another etymology I've heard is that it's a contraction of lír + goá + -n.

Abun
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby Abun » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:45 am


amhoanna
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby amhoanna » Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:07 am


Abun
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby Abun » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:09 am


amhoanna
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby amhoanna » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:31 am


Abun
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby Abun » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:18 am


amhoanna
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby amhoanna » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:45 am


Ah-bin
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby Ah-bin » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:54 pm

Just something to add. I have a suspicion that Vietnamese ta may have picked up the meaning of "our" through an enforced parallelism with written Chinese. Back when Vietnamese could only be written in Nôm, books for learning the script consisted of rhymed lists of vocabulary set out in "A [in Sino-Vietnamese] is B [in Vietnamese]"



The first few lines of the book Tam thiên tự (三千字) go:



天 Thiên là trời (sky is sky)

地 Địa là đất (earth is earth)

舉 Cử là cất (to raise is to raise)

存 Tồn là còn (to still exist is to still exist)

子 Tử là con (child is child)

孫 Tôn là cháu (grandchild is grandchild)

六 Lục là sáu (six is six)

三 Tam là ba (three is three)

家 Gia là nhà (home is home)

國 Quốc là nước…. (country is country)



and so on, I can't be bothered putting the Nôm in. In all of these rhymes Sino-Vietnamese ngã (我) ta is always paired with the native "ta". What I have noticed is that the connections drawn between Chinese and Vietnamese words in these rhymes have been influential in the creation of "native" Vietnamese vocabulary through calquing the individual morphemes of a compound word according to the Sino-Vietnamese compound, such as "nhà nước" modelled on "quốc gia" 國家 (with the morphemes reversed). 我 used as "our" is common in literary Chinese, and the Vietnamese seem to have modelled compounds on usages such as 我軍 and 我國, making (in the case of the second compound) "nước ta" meaning "our country". I think it might be through this habit of calquing that the ta in Vietnamese picked up the meaning of a first person inclusive pronoun, but I need to have a closer look at the history of the other first person pronouns in Vietnamese, to see if the original meaning was inclusive or not.



When I get back to Australia I'll check this, and also see if I can find anything in the Tai languages in Kwong-sai and northeastern Vietnam that indicates an inclusive pronoun.



Another thing to think about is the lack of the 北佬 word 咱們 in Taiwanese Mandarin. You would think they would have been more likely to use it for translating "lán" when Taiwanese first started learning Mandarin, but I think it may have been one of those words that is good 普通話 but bad 國語, and had a limited range of use before the bandits took over and promoted it.

amhoanna
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby amhoanna » Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Kadri, I would be interested in knowing what U find.



One other word that comes to mind is "người ta" (PEOPLE; OTHER PEOPLE).



I have a different theory regarding ZǍNMEN. I've noticed it's really a Northern word, used consistently by people from certain parts of North China. Apolitical, uneducated people use it no less -- possible more -- than anyone else, suggesting that there was no Party influence. On the other hand, Southern people don't use it much if at all, and the KMT was basically a Southern thing, so KMT Mandarin kind of did w/o it.



Kind of echoing your point, using "zǎnmen" maybe does serve as some kind of a political shibboleth among Southern Chinese. When a coastal Southern Chinese person uses the word, it does kind of "put me on guard". 8) The "ascendancy of the North" is one of the themes underlying Trung Cong (CCP) rule.

Abun
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby Abun » Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:08 am


niuc
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby niuc » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:39 pm

夠範久無來啊! :mrgreen:



Gún in my variant is used for both "my" and "our" (beside "exclusive we"). Gúntau 阮兜 (or more natively and frequently gúnnaī 阮內) can mean both "our house/place" and "my house/place". In my variant, gúnhiaⁿ 阮兄 for "my elder brother" is considered more "refined/smooth/native" than guá'êhiaⁿ 我个兄.



I think gún for "my" is used for persons/places/things that are usually shared, and maybe originally meant to cultivate "humility" (e.g. awareness that those are too big to be owned by oneself alone). But of course gún can be used arrogantly too.



For others such as book, pen, clothes, and even car (depends on context), I would use guá'ê 我个. Using gún for these in fact usually sounds weird or at least imprecise.



Usage of lín and lír'ê for "singular your" mirror the above.



In certain context, lán is used instead of gún to make the addressee feel welcomed and included.



Of course, these are what I observed in my variant. Not so sure about others.

Abun
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby Abun » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:43 pm


niuc
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby niuc » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:51 pm


amhoanna
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Re: Singular root of lán?

Postby amhoanna » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:44 am

Niuc, goânlâi Bâgán pún ciong chù kóng cò "lāi", kah Tiôciu-ōe kāng. 8)



I also benefited from Niuc's answer regarding the use of gún. I learned or thought I learned somewhere that "gún lāupē" is used whenever there's at least one sibling, but I guess it's used w/ or w/o siblings.



My "interpretation" of gún vs. goá ê -- Niuc, pls correct if off -- is that gún is used when it refers to something that the speaker is part of something with. "Gún bó͘" would be correct b/c the speaker and his wife are part of something -- a marriage, a coupling, a ความรัก. :mrgreen: On the other hand, I've also heard "goá ê bó͘" used. It seems to be a "marked form" with an emphasis on the speaker's possession of his wife, e.g. "Cò mihⁿ àmsî ca̍p tiám khà lâi chē góa ê bó͘?"


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