The passive voice in Hokkien - 畀 or 給?

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Mark Yong
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

The passive voice in Hokkien - 畀 or 給?

Post by Mark Yong » Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:02 pm

One of the grammatical aspects of Hokkien that came to mind recently is the use of the passive voice. For instance, if we were to say "my things were stolen by someone", we would say in Mandarin "我的東西被人偷去了". In particular, I am emphasising the word "被".

Now, in Cantonese, the phrase (word-for-word) would be "我 ge 嘢 bei 人偷著". Now, is the "bei" 被 (to cause something to happen) or 畀 (to give - Mandarin 給)? (Note that I did not use 啤 as is commonly used in Hong Kong, as 劉鎮發 has commented in his book that 畀 is the correct 本字). Both words have the same pronunciation in Cantonese (but different tone).

It appears that grammatically, Hokkien agrees with Cantonese, and uses the equivalent 輿 "hor" (to give), thus 我 e 物件輿儂偷提去了 "gua e mi-kia hor lang t'au-t'e k'i liau". I am therefore wondering if the use of 輿 "hor" to denote the passive voice in Hokkien was a result of Yue influence.
hong

Post by hong » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:47 pm

dict already gave the correct hanzi you mention pei.
被 is phei which is wrong.
No,it has nothing to do with cantonese
hoo,thoo(both 与),传 tng,乞 khi 相当于普通话的被,闽南话都用这些介词来成句。
城里人传tng乡下人骗去(城里人被乡下人骗了)
I think I do use khi but always have the wrong idea it is 去
tng and thoo only used in cuanciu sects.
Mark Yong
Posts: 684
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Post by Mark Yong » Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:03 am

hong wrote:dict already gave the correct hanzi you mention pei.
被 is phei which is wrong.
No,it has nothing to do with cantonese
hoo,thoo(both 与),传 tng,乞 khi 相当于普通话的被,闽南话都用这些介词来成句。
城里人传tng乡下人骗去(城里人被乡下人骗了)
I think I do use khi but always have the wrong idea it is 去
tng and thoo only used in cuanciu sects.
Hi, Hong,

Thanks. So, do you mean that grammatically in Hokkien, "輿(hor)儂舉去" is wrong, it should be "傳(tng)儂舉去"?

Also, do you mean that for "go", Mandarin (qu4) /Cantonese (hui) is 去, but Hokkien is 乞 (khi)? I thought 乞 was for 乞食 "kh'it chiak" (beggar).

Regards,
Mark
Mark Yong
Posts: 684
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Post by Mark Yong » Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:04 am

hong wrote:dict already gave the correct hanzi you mention pei.
被 is phei which is wrong.
No,it has nothing to do with cantonese
hoo,thoo(both 与),传 tng,乞 khi 相当于普通话的被,闽南话都用这些介词来成句。
城里人传tng乡下人骗去(城里人被乡下人骗了)
I think I do use khi but always have the wrong idea it is 去
tng and thoo only used in cuanciu sects.
Hi, Hong,

Thanks. So, do you mean that grammatically in Hokkien, "輿(hor)儂舉去" is wrong, it should be "傳(tng)儂舉去"?

Also, do you mean that for "go", Mandarin (qu4) /Cantonese (hui) is 去, but Hokkien is 乞 (khi)? I thought 乞 was for 乞食 "kh'it chiak" (beggar).

Regards,
Mark
hong

Post by hong » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:56 am

tng ,thoo only used by cuanciu.乞 is used in 3 sects and fuzhou as well.There are people in 惠安 saying khoo as well.
It is another spelling 其即切。
鱼 thoo 猫偷咬去了(鱼被猫叼走了)
衫裤乞传雨沃tam去( 衣服被雨淋湿了)
先生乞别农请去了(先生被别人请走了)
thoo我共伊搦来缚咧(让我把他抓来捆住)
乞有时可以与 hoo,thoo,tng 连用 ,or just 单用。
hong

Post by hong » Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:07 am

You can see this taiwanese prof 乞 is with entering tone like the one begging
we should trust china's experts
www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/ealc/chinling/articles/sinica.htm
Andrew

Post by Andrew » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:14 pm

The use of ? / ? in the passive is quite common in Minnan, together with khit ?.

In ??? several constructions were possible:

A V ? B
A ? B V
A ? B V
A ? B ? V
Andrew

Post by Andrew » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:15 pm

test
?
hong

Post by hong » Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:24 pm

I can't see the font use by andrew but I think I only heard people say 乞without entering tone.
Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:50 pm

another special sentence
牛共我共伊牵出去 =替我把牛牵走( 共= kang)
hong
Andrew

Post by Andrew » Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:53 pm

The use of 與 / 予 in the passive is quite common in Minnan, together with khit 乞.

In 文言文 apparently several constructions were possible:

A V 於 B
A 見 B V
A 為 B V
A 為 B 所 V

I have trouble inputting tnglangji from my Mac at home.
Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:05 pm

乞 is with entering tone in Cantonese
niuc
Posts: 734
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Location: Singapore

Post by niuc » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:34 am

In my dialect it seems that 去 khy3 is the correct one: 伊予人騙去 i1 ho`7-lang5-phian3_khy0, sometimes even 伊去予人騙去 i1 khy3-ho`7-lang5-phian3_khy0 (khy3 used twice for emphasis).
ong
Posts: 535
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:04 am

Post by ong » Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:53 am

I think it is a mistake.I will pay someone to photocopy 同安方言志 and photocopy that Phd thesis for the answer.I will let you know.
ong
Posts: 535
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:04 am

Post by ong » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:36 am

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本书收入翔安、同安韵味独特方言、俗语、歇后语等,让闽南话故乡的孩子说好家乡话
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