the practice of sentence making

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Locked
Guest

the practice of sentence making

Post by Guest » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:55 am

Where I live, in 鳳凰市, there is a language spoken called "O'odham". At first people had said "This language is difficult for us to write. We can write a few sentences, but no more, and even that is difficult." so they use mostly English instead. But then some people, with a bit of practice, are writing long essays and books and articles in O'odham language, and after people practice and it is no longer difficult, it is used for business, newspaper, and even on road signs.

Mark
Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:58 am

The post of Mark Andrew Williamson provided some very good point.
Let us try to have the practice of sentence making in the Hokkian speaking.
Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:59 am

新诗: 【在 潮湿 的 小站 上】 author: 舒婷
(She wrote in the Mandarin speaking)

风,若有 若无
雨,三点 两点
这 是 深秋 的 南方

一位 少女 喜孜孜 向 我 奔来
又 怅然 退去
花束 倾倒 在 臂弯

她 在 等 谁 呢?
月台 空荡荡
灯光 水汪汪

列车 缓缓 开动
在 橙色 光晕 的 夜晚
白 纱巾 一闪 一闪 ……
Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:10 am

【ti 湿toa-toa e 站a teng】
(ti sip-toa-toa e cham-a teng)


风,若有 若无
hong, na-u na-bo

雨,三点 两点
u, saN-tiam lng-tiam

这 是 深秋 e 南方
chiat si chhim-chhiu e lam-hng


chit-ke 在sek女 hoaN喜lak-tak hiuN 我 cho来
chit-ke chai-sek-lu hoaN-hi-lak-tak hiuN goa cho-lai

又koh bo-thau-bo-sin 退去
iu-koh bo-thau-bo-sin the-khi

花束 khe倒 ti chhiu-kut弯--e
hoe-sok to-khe ti chhiu-kut-oan--e


i ti-leh 等 siaN-lang 呢?
i ti-leh tan siaN-lang ne ?

月台 空lo-soh
geh-tai khang-lo-soh

灯光 chhiuN 水eng io-e-io-e
teng-kng chhiuN chui-eng io-e-io-e


he车 un-un-a tin动
he-chhia un-un-a tin-tang

tiam 橙色 光khoan e am-mi
tiam chhang-sek kng-khoan e am-mi

白 纱巾 saN-e saN-e ……
peh se-kun saN-e saN-e ……


words list:
sin-si 新诗
ti 在
sip-toa-toa 潮湿
e 的
cham-a 小站
teng 上
Su Theng 舒婷

hong 风
na-u 若有
na-bo 若无
u 雨
saN-tiam 三点
lng-tiam 两点
chiat 这
si 是
chhim-chhiu 深秋
lam-hng 南方

chit-ke 一位
chai-sek-lu 少女
hoaN-hi-lak-tak 喜孜孜
hiuN 向
goa 我
cho-lai 奔来
iu-koh 又
bo-thau-bo-sin 怅然
the-khi 退去
hoe-sok 花束
to-khe 倾倒
ti 在
chhiu-kut-oan 臂弯
--e 的

i 她
ti-leh 在
tan 等
siaN-lang 谁
ne 呢
geh-tai 月台
khang-lo-soh 空荡荡
teng-kng 灯光
chhiuN 像
chui-eng io-e-io-e 水汪汪

he-chhia 列车
un-un-a 缓缓
tin-tang 开动
tiam 在
chhang-sek 橙色
kng-khoan 光晕
am-mi 夜晚
peh 白
se-kun 纱巾
saN-e 一闪

Hokkian version: magpai
Guest

Post by Guest » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:12 am

Niuc,

Need your help, could you help to translate this poem into English, or just translate the words list into English. Your English is more excellent.

best regards
magpie
hong

Post by hong » Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:04 am

I can't see how special it is ,the lyric is very common among minnan songs.The words can be found in minnan dict.It is not that we are studying strange words from minnan song books created during ming period.
See this master degree for some points.The theories could be absolutely wrong.Just be careful about it
http://192.192.96.1/ETD-db/ETD-search/g ... 222240.pdf
Guest

Post by Guest » Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:28 am

> I can't see how special it is , the lyric is very common among minnan songs.
> The words can be found in minnan dict.
> It is not that we are studying strange words from minnan song books created during ming period.

Hong,

Thanks for your messages. You are right, this lyric is very common among Hokkian songs.

This poem is write in Mandarin speaking by a poetess, name Su Theng. We borrow it for the aim to have a chance in the bilingual "practice of sentence making" in Hokkian speaking only. The junior learners of Hokkian speaking could compare the "sentence making" in the Mandarin and Hokkian. They could distinguished the "sentence making" in these two speaking.

The words can be found in Hokkian dictionaries which could help the junior learners to write the right, or suitable Hokkian sentence. There are many native Hokkian speakers could not know how to write their native speaking in the "written language", this "practice of sentence making" is hope to help them, and I wish everybody could provide their points to this topic.

Those strange words from Hokkian song books we may be post in a new thread for discussion. I hope to know more about these strange words and wish somebody could post them for the public discussion.

magpie
Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:56 am

新诗:【日光岩 下 的 三角梅】 author: 舒婷
(She wrote in the Mandarin speaking)

是 喧闹 的 飞瀑
披挂 寂寞 的 石壁
最 有限 的 营养
却 献出了 最 丰富 的 自己

是 华贵 的 亭伞
为 野荒 遮蔽风雨
越 是 生冷 的 地方
越 显得 放浪、美丽

不拘 墙头、路旁
无论 草坡、石隙
只要 阳光 常年 有
春 夏 秋 冬

都 是 你 的 花期
呵,抬头 是 你
低头 是 你
闭上 眼睛 还 是 你

即使 身 在 异乡他水
只要 想起
日光岩 下 的 三角梅
眼光 便 柔和 如 梦

心,不知 是悲是喜
Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:59 am

【日光岩 下toe e 三角梅】
(lit-kng-giam e-toe e saN-kak-mui)

是 chhiang-chhiang-kun e 落「石祭」
si chhiang-chhiang-kun e lo-che

挂 ti bo-siuN寂 e 石壁
koa ti bo-siuN-sioh e chio-bia

siong 有限 e 营养
siong iu-han e eng-iong

soah 献出 chiaN-chiaN 丰富 e ka己
soah hian-chhut chiaN-chiaN hong-hu e ka-ki


是 华贵 e 亭a伞
si hoa-kui e teng-a-soaN

为 山tiuN tiam风 bi-hou
ui soaN-tiuN tiam-hong bi-hou

lu 是 生冷 e sou-chai
lu si chhiN-leng e sou-chai

lu 显chhut 放浪、sui-khui
lu hian-chhut hong-long、sui-khui


m-koan 墙头、路piN
m-koan chhiuN-thau、lou-piN

无论 草pou、石phang
bo-lun chhau-pou、chio-phang

chi-beh 日光 kui-tang 有
chi-beh lit-kng kui-tang u

春 夏 秋 冬
chhun he chhiu tang


keh-ke 是 汝 e 花期
keh-ke si li e hoe-ki

呵,kiah头 是 汝
ou,kiah-thau si li

tim头 是 汝
tim-thau si li

目chiu khoe-khoe ah-koh 是 汝
bak-chiu khoe-khoe ah-koh si li


siat使 身khu ti-teh koa乡 koa水
siat-su sin-khu ti-teh koa-hiuN koa-chui

chi-beh 想tioh
chi-beh siuN-tioh

日光岩 下toe e 三角梅
lit-kng-giam e-toe e saN-kak-mui

目光 tioh-e un-sun na 梦
bak-kng tioh-e un-sun na bang


心koaN,m-chai 是悲是喜
sim-koaN,m-chai si-hi-si-bi

magpie
Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:59 am

words list:
lit-kng-giam 日光岩
e-toe 下
e 的
saN-kak-mui 三角梅
si 是
chhiang-chhiang-kun 喧闹
落「石祭」飞瀑
挂ti 披挂
bo-siuN-sioh 寂寞
chio-bia 石壁
siong 最
iu-han 有限
eng-iong 营养
soah 却
hian-chhut 献出了
chiaN-chiaN 最
hong-hu 丰富
ka-ki 自己
hoa-kui 华贵
teng-a-soaN 亭伞
ui 为
soaN-tiuN 野荒
tiam-hong bi-hou 遮蔽风雨
lu 越
chhiN-leng 生冷
sou-chai 地方
hian-chhut 显得
hong-long 放浪
sui-khui 美丽
m-koan 不拘
chhiuN-thau 墙头
lou-piN 路旁
bo-lun 无论
草pou 草坡
石phang 石隙
chi-beh 只要
lit-kng 阳光
kui-tang 常年
u 有
chhun 春
he 夏
chhiu 秋
tang 冬
keh-ke 都
hoe-ki 花期
ou 呵
li 你
kiah-thau 抬头
tim-thau 低头
bak-chiu 眼睛
khoe-khoe 闭上
ah-koh 还是
siat-su 即使
sin-khu 身
ti-teh 在
koa-hiuN koa-chui 异乡他水
siuN-tioh 想起
bak光 眼光
tioh-e 便
un-sun 柔和
na 如
bang 梦
sim-koaN 心
m-chai 不知
si-hi-si-bi 是悲是喜
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Post by niuc » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:09 pm

Hi Magpie :), sorry for this late reply as I had not visited this forum for several weeks. Thanks for your kind remark but my English is not that good yet. As it is not my native language (not even my second language), I do have difficulties in translating the poems above, because they employ figures of speech heavily. It's best to have a bilingual in Mandarin and English to translate them.

Your Hokkien is very good that you can translate those poems. I am not familiar with some of the words such as:
sip-toa-toa -> what's toa-toa, which tone?
橙 chhang -> which tone? I usually pronounce it 'chiam5' (chhiam5)
落「石祭」 what's the tone of "che" there? Is 飛瀑 same as 瀑布 waterfall? I usually pronounce it phok4-po`3
sui-khui 美丽 what's the meaning & tone of khui?
tim3-thau5 in my dialect is 點頭 to nod, 低头 is a*3-thau5
Please help. Thanks! :D
hong

Post by hong » Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:42 am

氣 baidu khui3 is among the special 詞尾 in minnan﹐緊~﹐軟~﹐,阿狗~(撒嬌)。鬆~(輕鬆)﹐漏~ is very common.解~(發泄)﹐夠氣 enough,做散~=調情 is unknown to most people but I heard a lot in taiwanese drama.
做一~一口氣 閩﹐這~=now is not 詞尾。
baidu of 氣 in minnan is more special than wendu.
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:29 am

> sip-toa-toa -> what's toa-toa, which tone?
sip-toah-toah; toah 7

> 橙 chhang -> which tone? I usually pronounce it 'chiam5' (chhiam5)
chhang 4; chhiam 5

> 落「石祭」 what's the tone of "che" there? Is 飛瀑 same as 瀑布 waterfall? I usually pronounce it phok4-po`3
che 4; lo-che, kiap-che; 飛瀑, 瀑布; waterfall

> sui-khui 美丽 what's the meaning & tone of khui?
khui 4; sui-khui; 美丽; beautiful
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:30 am

Niuc,

Thanks for your correction.

> tim3-thau5 in my dialect is 點頭 to nod,
yes, you are right. I also say tim3-thau5; 點頭

> 低头 is a*3-thau5
I also say aN-thau; 低头

correction:

呵,kiah头 是 汝
ou,kiah-thau si li

aN头 是 汝
aN-thau si li

regards,
magpie
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Post by niuc » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:39 pm

Hong, thanks! So it's 氣! I heard of other -khui3 but hardly sui2-khui3, 緊~ (kin2-khui3?), 做散~.

Magpie, what's the meaning of toa7 alone in 濕~~? Thanks, so 落「石祭」 is Hokkien word for 瀑布. Btw what's your tone convention? Is it 獅虎兔鴨牛馬象鹿? Btw, our dialect pronounces 舉 (~頭) as gia8. I notice that most say kia8....
Locked