Retaining Hokkien Language

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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Ken

Re: Retaining Language

Post by Ken » Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:02 am

Hi Mark,

Hokkien = Minnan is only a habitual term. This is because Minnan speakers form the majority of Fujianese around the world and hence Minnan becomes the representational language of Hokkien province. Therefore, when people say 'Hokkien', it is assumed they refer to Minnan. Bear in mind that in Hokkien or Fujian province, there are several dialects which include mainly the Minnan, Mindong, Minbei and the Hakka dialect too.
Technically speaking, 'Hokkien' means 'Fujian' and another word for Fujian is Min. So Hokkien=Min is not wrong although the speaker may need to clarify for some listeners.
The Taiwanese and Mainland Chinese are more specific in their expression.
They will say that they speak 'Minnan wei' or "Minnan hua', they usually do not use 'Hokkien Wei' or 'Fujian Hua' because they know that this might make people guess which Fujian dialect they are referring too.
Using Hokkien=Minnan is very typical of Overseas Chinese in South East Asia but not a usual practice among Taiwanese and Mainland Chinese.

My humble opinion
Ken
Ong

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by Ong » Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:39 pm

Hi Ken,

lu ho bo? Not my first time. I have following this forum closely and it seems to be getting more interesting with discussion on more related Hokkien issues and materials.

By the way, do Singaporean Hokkiens observe the tradition of Pai Ti Kong which falls on the 9th day of the 1st month in the Lunar calendar?. In fact, it is a very auspicious occasion for the Hokkiens in Malaysia particularly in Penang where it is celebrated on a grand scale befitting a Hokkien New Year. However, I do not know whether it is still observed in Hokkien Province and Taiwan by the Hokkiens. Perhaps someone can throw some light into this.
Ken

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by Ken » Tue Nov 05, 2002 1:03 am

I thinks most hokkien practices in both Malaysia and Singapore are similar. The worship of 'ti kong' should exist in Singapore. These practises were passed down from mainland China.

Some of our religious practices may be kind of a different from mainland China and Taiwan. For example, the worship of 'Ma Zu' or 'Matsu' is not so popular in South East Asia as compared to Taiwan and maimland China.
BHYeo

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by BHYeo » Thu Nov 07, 2002 2:59 pm

Hi Ken,


When I visited the cities of E-mng and Chuan-chui in southern Hokkien Province some years back, I couldn't find the famous 'Hokkien Mee' which is very common in Malaysia and Singapore. This makes me wonder where Hokkien Mee originated - from Hokkien Province or a local creation in Singapore or Malaysia?
Kobo-Daishi

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by Kobo-Daishi » Thu Nov 07, 2002 10:52 pm

Dear BHYeo,

What is mee? I guess it's 麵 (Mand: mian4, Cant: min6) meaning "flour; dough; noodles" from the context of your posting. At the link below they have "mi7" for its Minnan/Taiwanese pronunciation.

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/vi ... in,english

At first I thought it was 廟 (Mand: miao4, Cant: miu6) meaning "temple, shrine" but then I remembered that in Minnan a lot of words with m- initial in Mandarin & Cantonese have a b- initial value. At the link below they have "bio7" for its Minnan/Taiwanese pronunciation.

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/vi ... in,english

Hey since they obviously have the Minnan/Taiwanese pronunciation for a lot of the characters why don't they add a look up feature for Minnan/Taiwanese to the main dictionary?

Maybe, it's time for you to e-mail the webmaster again :-)

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.o
Ken

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by Ken » Fri Nov 08, 2002 1:27 am

Hi Yeo,

I supppose u visited Xiamen & Quanzhou.

Same sentiments here, I may not know much about Chinese dishes but I believe that Hokkien Mee could be a local dish.

I also heard that the 'Hainan Chicken Rice' did not originate from Hainan province either.
Ken

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by Ken » Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:48 am

Hi my dear Chao Zhou Friend,

There has been a discussion on the relationship between Teochew and Hokkien dialects. It is definitely true that the Hokkien Minnan people share a lot of cultural similarities with the Teochews. According to language experts, Teochew is considered part of the Minnan language (Pls refer to 'Encyclopedia of Overseas Chinese'). From this, one would usually think that Teochews should come from Fujian Province. But the fact is Teochews usually trace their ancestry to the Chaozhou region in Northen Guangdong province.

According to sources, the Teochews, just like the Hokkiens were originally from Southern Fujian. But due to some reasons, there was a series of mass migration of Teochews to northern Guangdong bordering Fujian, during the Song dynasty( 10-11 Century or so); which explained for Guangdong being the place of origin for the Teochews.

Ken
James Campbell

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by James Campbell » Sat Nov 09, 2002 5:45 pm

I'm not an expert on this, but could it be that the borders were moved or changed a little over time? If you look at linguistic maps there isn't any break between Teochews and the rest of Minnan speaking area in Fujian. So I don't really consider the fact that Teochews belonging to Guangdong province is a great deal to say they are so different than the rest of Minnan speaking areas. They are connected and they do speak Minnan regardless of where the borders were drawn.
BHYeo

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by BHYeo » Sun Nov 10, 2002 5:44 am

Hi Kobo-Daishi,

Sorry for not clarifying the 'mee' in the first instance. You are right to relate it to mi7 in the Minnan/Taiwanese pronunciation.

I have browsed through the Chinese dictionary and certainly it would be helpful if the webmaster adds the look-up feature for Hokkien/Minnan/Taiwanese to the main dictionary. I have e-mailed the webmaster as suggested by you. Thank you.

With best regards,

BHYeo
Ken

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by Ken » Mon Nov 11, 2002 1:39 am

Hi James,

Your point on the change of border is interesting and it is definitely worth investigating.

By the way, although Teochew is considered a Minnan dialect, it is different from the others in terms of accent and certain pronunciations. Teochew(Chaozhou) dialect is spoken with a higher pitch or tone. This variation makes it a distinct form of Minnan dialect



Ken
Eugene Cheah

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by Eugene Cheah » Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:41 am

There's one problem though...although most of us here in singapore are hokkien,they dun use it..even if they do,its full of flaws andmixed with english.this is a big problem that i think should be addressed...another thing is that hokkien in singapore is used for scolding people..as what i see among teens.that's very disgraceful.for example,the use words like(kaninah=@!#$ your mom)etc...something has to be done!!!!!
ertert

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by ertert » Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:43 am

retret
Kobo-Daishi

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by Kobo-Daishi » Thu Nov 21, 2002 10:18 am

Dear all,

Mark wrote:

> for example somebody is at the mall, and they need to ask for "jiaoza" in Hokkien, they can go to the database and search for the Hokkien pronunciation of "jiaoza" and say it...

Yeo Boon Hong wrote:

> Word like 'jiaoza' should be written and pronounced as 'tiau-cha' in the Amoy romanization which means to investigate.

I think Mark meant 餃子 (Mand: jiao3 zi5, Cant: gaau2 ji2) ‘a type of Northern Chinese dumpling made of dough and containing meat, etc’.

They’re commonly called ‘potstickers’ here in the United States and are available where 'dimsum' is served.

You can also find them in the ‘frozen’ section of supermarkets. In Japanese markets they go by the Japanese pronunciation of ‘gyoza’. In Korean markets they’re called ‘mandu’.

According to the chinalanguage dictionary the characters would be pronounced kiau2 chi2 in Minnan/Taiwanese.

As for 調查 (Mand: diao4 cha2, Cant: diu6 cha4) meaning ‘to investigate’ the chinalanguage dictionary does give it a Minnan/Taiwanese reading of tiau7 cha1.

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
PPK

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by PPK » Sun Nov 24, 2002 10:56 am

'potsticker' is called 'guo1 tie1', a jiaozi that is being 'barbecued' and is crispy. normal jiaozi are boiled in water and are soft. personally i think jiaozi is a northern food. the south had something called 'hun2tun1'('wan tan' in cantonese) which is more or less the same thing. but i havent done any research on this.
Steve

Re: Retaining Hokkien Language

Post by Steve » Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:31 pm

jiaozi is NOT the same as hun2tun1!
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