Ang-Mor Knee

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
hong

Post by hong » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:40 pm

原始台语的量词 kai 和汉语<个>的上古音相合。汉语量词<个>最初在先秦文献出现时,就是泛指的,有人认为它的词源是形容词<介>。我们认为这种看法是不对的。泛指量词<个>从汉语本身找不到来源。。。。。(游汝杰)
we have to know 蜀 tsit in minnan doesn't sound correct with the 反切=市玉切。It should have ik vowel(ek in teochew).Prof.Li said it was due to vowel i.
hong

Post by hong » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:06 pm

个 is a 量词 and a 指示代词 this /that as well.李白==白发三千丈,缘愁似个长。
个般,个样 etc.This is retained in cantonese and hakka.
Cantonese kam is a joint of 个么。
So I think 之 as a 指示代词 may has a good reason to be a 量词 as well.Maybe it is in some old texts.
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:54 am

> cuanciu say "ge" is because of the last consonant "t" in "tsit 蜀" It becomes "tsik ge" for some people.

"蜀 so" (Hok-chiu) means one,
"蜀 so" (Heng-hoa) means one,
"蜀 sok / so" (Choan-chiu, E-mng) mean 1. one, 2. ancient place-name, 3. only one, 4. lonely, 5. silently, 6. depression

In th Hokkian speaking there have three character to mean one 1. 一 it, 2. 禃 chit, 3. 蜀 so.
But the Hok-chiu and Heng-hoa just the character "so 蜀" to mean one.

In the Choan-chiu and E-mng, this word "蜀 so" can be said;
1. so 蜀 (one) e.g. "Chit-kui kang-sit, khou-te-a khang-khang tng poaN so."
2. sok 蜀 (Su-chhoan "四川" province) e.g. "Sam-kok pau-koat u Ui-kok, Ngou-kok kah Sok-kok."
3. it-so 一蜀 (only one) e.g. "Goa chit-chun ti-leh it-so, ka-ki chit-kou lang."
4. chiaN-so 誠蜀 (lonely) e.g. "Chit-ke sou-chai na kau am-mi-si, hou lang kam-kak chiaN-so, koh sim-koaN-lai beh-khau beh-khau."
5. am-so-so 暗蜀蜀 (dark silently) e.g. "Ti e-hng-si koh lo-hou thiN, hit-tiau hang-a am-so-so."
6. chhi-bin so-so 市面 蜀蜀 (the depression of market) e.g. "Chit-kui-lo tang, keng-che phai kah chiaN-thiam chhi-bin so-so."

SL
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:56 am

> Many also say "e" and "le" in cuanciu.

In Hokkian, a county have many different accents between the villiages.
We all hope the experts could provide a table of syllabary cover all villiages in southern Hokkian.

SL
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:00 am

> "之" middle chinese is just "ci" with no entering tone.
It is krj--- consonant in older chinese.
Buy a book called 江西客家方言概况,see page 281,2 for details. "其" is a 假借 for it。


This book <江西客家方言概况> (Kang-sai Kheh-ka Hong-gian Khai-hong) said the character "之" is krj--- consonant in older chinese and the character "其" is a 假借字 (syllabogram) for it. The author of this book may be wrong in explanation on these characters "其" and "之".

These character "之" and "其" also existed in Classic Chinese as the "function word" in the form of syllabogram. The character "其" pronounce as "peh-thak-im; 其 ke", "bun-thak-im; 其 ki", in the Hokkian language. The Hakka and Cantonese all pronounce "其 ke", as the "peh-thak-im; 其 ke" as in the Hokkian. e.g.

Hokkian: 三 其(嘅) 先生 = saN ke sin-sEN; 我 其(嘅) 先生 = goa ke sin-sEN
Hakka: 三 其(嘅) 先生 = sam ke sin-sang; 我 其(嘅) 先生 = ngai ke sin-sang
Cantonese: 三 個 先生 = sam kou sin-sang; 我 其(嘅) 先生 = ngou ke sin-sang

The Hokkian, hakka and Cantonese all have the same function word "其 Ke" (the original character).
This character "嘅 ke" is a "dialect character" of Cantonese speaking.

SL
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:03 am

> Li Ru-long's article:
"其"
1. 在 闽语 普遍 用作 "结构助词",相当 于 普通话 的 <的>,
2. 在 沿海 闽语 又作 "量词"。

I find that Professor Li Lu-long's point is right.


> 福州话 用作 "量词" 时 读重 为 ki, 是 "其" 的 本音,用作 助词 时 读 为 轻声 "i", 闽北 闽中 只 用作 助词。

I guess that pronounciation of "其 ke", this peh-thak-im of southern Hokkian is the original sound (本音), because "其 ke" also existing in Hakka, Cantonese and Tibetan language, and the Hok-chiu pronounce as "其 ki" is just as a bun-thak-im of southern Hokkian.

SL
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:06 am

> 兮 is just 语气词 in ancient chinese like 诗经.

You are right, "兮 e" is just the "语气词" in Classic Chinese. When we hope to design a "hokkian (Chinese Character) writing system" (a kind of Logo-syllabic writing system) for Hokkian language, some "function word" should select the next character with similar sound as its syllabogram (假借字). The character "兮 e" is a suitable character to express the sound of "e". Anybody could also suggest their favourite "character" (syllabogram; 假借字) for the sound of "e" and post it for the public discussion.

SL
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Dec 03, 2005 9:10 am

> There is only one scholar from China 游汝杰 who said this is the correct hanzi 个 for minnan 。
> "kai" is the original sound in teochew and "e" is just 过渡音。People will not accept this kind of explanation.
> He said this in his article <台语量词在南方方言里>。。。(台语means 壮语等)


This point of Professor Iu lu-kiat (游汝杰) may be wrong.


> Li Ru-long's article:
> "其"
> 闽南 的 泉漳厦 用作 量词 时 读 阳平 "e", 后 连 其他 音节 时 变调,用作 助词 是 念 轻声 "e"。
> 如 "gou-e lang ge = 五个 人 的" 是 与 前音 韵尾 合音 的 现象。

The Phoenician, English, Malaysian all belong to the "Alphabet writing system",
they all just have a set of pronounciation as "the pronounciation of oral speaking" (语音).

The Hokkian, Cantonese, Hakka, Wu, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean and Vietnam all borrowed the character of "logogram" (Chinese character) as their "Logo- syllabic writing system", therefor they all have two set of pronounciation;
1. the pronounciation of logogram (字音)
2. the pronounciation of oral speaking (语音)

I find that the "其" was pronounced as "kle 其" (double-consonant) in the "pronounciation of logogram" (字音).
In our everyday speaking, we could pronounce as "ke", "le", and "e". These three sound all come from the "kle 其", when we pronounce in "ke", it lost consolant "l"; pronounce as "le", it lost consolant "k"; and pronounce as "e", it lost all initials.
These "ke", "le' and "e" all are the "pronounciation of oral speaking" (语音).
These "变调" and "合音" all exist in the oral speaking of Hokkian language in Ancient, Middle and Present time.

When we design a "Hokkian (Logogram-Syllabogram) writing system", which is a style of oral speaking (peh-oe-bun), so the sound "其(嘅) ke", "le" and "e" need to select a suitable Chinese character to express them.

SL
hong

Post by hong » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:26 pm

Anonymous wrote:> cuanciu say "ge" is because of the last consonant "t" in "tsit 蜀" It becomes "tsik ge" for some people.

"蜀 so" (Hok-chiu) means one,
"蜀 so" (Heng-hoa) means one,
"蜀 sok / so" (Choan-chiu, E-mng) mean 1. one, 2. ancient place-name, 3. only one, 4. lonely, 5. silently, 6. depression

In th Hokkian speaking there have three character to mean one 1. 一 it, 2. 禃 chit, 3. 蜀 so.
But the Hok-chiu and Heng-hoa just the character "so 蜀" to mean one.

In the Choan-chiu and E-mng, this word "蜀 so" can be said;
1. so 蜀 (one) e.g. "Chit-kui kang-sit, khou-te-a khang-khang tng poaN so."
2. sok 蜀 (Su-chhoan "四川" province) e.g. "Sam-kok pau-koat u Ui-kok, Ngou-kok kah Sok-kok."
3. it-so 一蜀 (only one) e.g. "Goa chit-chun ti-leh it-so, ka-ki chit-kou lang."
4. chiaN-so 誠蜀 (lonely) e.g. "Chit-ke sou-chai na kau am-mi-si, hou lang kam-kak chiaN-so, koh sim-koaN-lai beh-khau beh-khau."
5. am-so-so 暗蜀蜀 (dark silently) e.g. "Ti e-hng-si koh lo-hou thiN, hit-tiau hang-a am-so-so."
6. chhi-bin so-so 市面 蜀蜀 (the depression of market) e.g. "Chit-kui-lo tang, keng-che phai kah chiaN-thiam chhi-bin so-so."

SL
蜀 is an word with entering tone.In fuzhou it is soh,in minnan is siok.hakka is cuk.You examples are wrong.Buy some dict.
hong

Post by hong » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:28 pm

Anonymous wrote:> Many also say "e" and "le" in cuanciu.

In Hokkian, a county have many different accents between the villiages.
We all hope the experts could provide a table of syllabary cover all villiages in southern Hokkian.

SL
Scholars in China have written 方言志 for each county .
hong

Post by hong » Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:42 pm

蜀 in fuzhou Prof.Li 's article is suoh,soh is in other dict.
彼其之子。。。I just found one book said 彼其 in here is just 固定格式,it has no meaning for 其 in here.So we still use 之 as 的 there。Prof Li is wrong with the example but it doesn't mean 其 has no meaning of 的。
鸟之将死,其鸣也哀 carries 的 meaning.
Guest

Post by Guest » Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:27 pm

> 蜀 is an word with entering tone. In fuzhou it is soh, in minnan is siok. hakka is cuk. You examples are wrong. Buy some dict.
> 蜀 in fuzhou Prof. Li 's article is suoh, soh is in other dict.

Hong, thanks for your messages.

correction as follow;

Hokkian: 蜀 soh 7 / siok (Choan-chiu, E-mng), mean 1. one, 2. ancient place-name, 3. only one, 4. lonely, 5. silently, 6. depression, 7. one dollar,
Hok-chiu: 蜀 soh, suoh (Prof.Li 's article), means one
Heng-hoa: 蜀 soh, means one
Hakka: 蜀 cuk

In the Hokkian speaking there have three character to mean one 1. 一 it, 2. 禃 chit, 3. 蜀 soh.
But the Hok-chiu and Heng-hoa just the character "soh 蜀" to mean one.

In the Choan-chiu and E-mng, this word "蜀 soh" can be said;
1. soh 蜀 (one) e.g. "Chit-kui kang-sit, khou-te-a khang-khang tng poaN soh."
2. siok 蜀 (Su-chhoan "四川" province) e.g. "Sam-kok pau-koat u Ui-kok, Ngou-kok kah Siok-kok."
3a. it-soh 一蜀 (only one) e.g. "Goa chit-chun ti-leh it-soh, ka-ki chit-kou lang."
3b. chit-soh 禃蜀 (only one) e.g. "I chia kah lau lau-lau chiah chhun ka-ki chit-soh."
4. chiaN-soh 誠蜀 (lonely) e.g. "Chit-ke sou-chai na kau am-mi-si, hou lang kam-kak chiaN-soh, koh sim-koaN-lai beh-khau beh-khau."
5. am-soh-soh 暗蜀蜀 (dark silently) e.g. "Ti e-hng-si koh lo-hou thiN, hit-tiau hang-a am-soh-soh."
6. chhi-bin soh-soh 市面 蜀蜀 (the depression of market) e.g. "Chit-kui-lo tang, keng-che phai kah chiaN-thiam chhi-bin soh-soh."
7. chit-soh 禃蜀 (one dollar) e.g. "Goa ke lak-a ta kah bo chit-soh."

SL
hong

Post by hong » Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:11 am

I don't know what you are trying to say but am am-so-so,it isn't soh-soh.So the hanzi isn't 蜀。
If you talk about lonely 无趣 in minnan ,it is 无俗 sioh.
Putian isn't *s* consonant but some other kind of s .
Fuzhou 蜀 suoh is only 单说。
Please buy some dict or else you will come out with more crazy ideas.
Andrew

Post by Andrew » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:42 pm

For kau, would 就 not be a possible word? It has the correct meaning.
limsumin
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Ang-Mor Knee

Post by limsumin » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:47 am

[quote="Mark"... I recieved it from a Singaporean friend in this format and decided to pass it on as both a pun and a linguistic treasure of how Hokkiens in Singapore romanise their language... spell Hokkien in romanisation how they think it would be spelled in English, and that's the reason for the "ee" and "ooh" "yeo" "kao" etc.]

Mark you hit the nail on the head. in the bad old days we bananas used to romanise Mandarin any old chin chye way also. And we try our own style to to put Hokkien on paper without any formal rules.

<Su Min, sinkek Baba...> :roll: :roll:
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