Ang-Mor Knee

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Mark
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:53 pm
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Re: Ang-Mor Knee

Post by Mark » Mon Sep 30, 2002 11:57 pm

in C.M. leomanisation;

Ah Lian: lu wu voei STOCKING gau KNEE veo?
Salesgirl: gau ni? gau yau, wu. veo gau ni e!
Ah Lian: mm si tng leng e 'ni'... si ang mo e 'knee"!
nokko

Re: Ang-Mor Knee

Post by nokko » Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:33 am

I am not sure if this reply will still get read (since the last post was before 2003) but just wanna point out that, as a Malaysian who receives Singaporean hokkien jokes, I would interpret 'ni' in the above conversation as 'breast', as in the position of the human body where stockings can be stretched to. 'ni' is also used for 'milk', like 'gu ni' = cow milk, 'teh ni' = tea with milk.

However, I don't really hear this in Malaysia where ppl 'pronounce' milk/breast as 'ni', instead I often hear 'leng', 'gu leng', etc... just wondering are these variants still hokkien or mixed from teochew?

using freeform romanisation here, pai se pai se. . .

regards
sukii
Guest

Post by Guest » Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:44 am

Ah Lian:
Loo ooh-buay "stocking" kao "knee" boh ?

khia-tiam cha-bo:
Kao "nee" ?
Kao yeo, ooh.
Boh-kao "nee" eh !

Ah Lian:
Mm-si Tng-lang eh "nee"...
si Ang-mor eh "knee" !


vocabularies:
Ah Lian 阿蓮 (a name of woman)
loo (Chiang-chiu style) you
li 汝 (E-mng and Choan-chiu style) you
ooh-buay 有賣 sold
tng-thang-beh 長統襪 stocking
kao 遘 reach
kha-thau-hu 骹頭伕 knee
boh 無 have not
kia-tiam ca-bo 徛店 查嫫 Salesgirl
nee 奶 breasts
yeo 腰 waist
ooh 有 have
boh-kao 無遘 do not reach
eh 奚 used at the end of a declarative sentence or a word, a phrase for emphasis
mm-si 毋是 is not
Tng-lang 唐農 Chinese people
eh 兮 used after a word or phrase to indicate which is an adjective
si 是 is
Ang-mor 紅魔 Dutchman, Dutchwoman

SL
tantg
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:39 pm

Ang-Mor Knee

Post by tantg » Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:31 pm

I wish to differ from SL's translation somewhat -

kao 遘 - can't see why it's 遘, which means "to meet". I think it's like 到, but can't find the Hokkien word.

eh 奚,兮 - it's not 奚 and not used for emphasis in the Salesgirl's words. It's a possesive like the Mandarin 的, or Cantonese 嘅, as in 我的,紅色的.

Tng-lang 唐農 - Chinese farmer? No. How about 唐郎.

Ang-mor 紅魔 - I prefer 紅毛. Since this joke came from Singapore, 紅毛 means a white person, not just Dutch.
吉李&

Post by 吉李& » Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:14 pm

lang5=儂
From Kangxi Zidian 儂: 吳人謂人儂 即人聲之轉
The people of 吳 call human "儂", a mutation from 人's sound.
Guest

Post by Guest » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:01 am

tantg,

>kao 遘 - can't see why it's 遘, which means "to meet". I think it's like 到, but can't find the Hokkien word.
>eh 奚,兮 - it's not 奚 and not used for emphasis in the Salesgirl's words. It's a possesive like the Mandarin 的, or Cantonese 嘅, as in 我的,紅色的.
>Tng-lang 唐農 - Chinese farmer? No. How about 唐郎.
>Ang-mor 紅魔 - I prefer 紅毛. Since this joke came from Singapore, 紅毛 means a white person, not just Dutch.


Some experts all said the character "kao 遘", is the original Hokkian word, and the character "到" is just a borrow-meaning (訓讀字 hun-thak-ji) Hokkian word.

These two characters "--eh 奚" and "e 兮" are the function words. The "--eh 奚" is pronounced at a low and short voice, and the "e 兮" is high and long voice. In those Classic Chinese had these function words. The character "的 to" in Mandarin, is pronounced "的 tek" in Hokkian. The character "嘅 ke" in Cantonese, is pronounced "嘅 ke" in Hokkian. The function word (character) usually borrowed a similar sound from a next word (character), Which only provided a similar sound and as a "syllabogram".

Although these function words "--eh 奚", "e 兮", "的 to / tek", "嘅 ke / ke" have the same function in a sentence. But, the Hokkian, Cantonese and Mandarin are the different speaking, as the word "的" pronounce "tek" in Hokkian, not "--eh" or "e". When Hokkian, Cantonese and Mandarin developed their own writing system, they should select the suitable Chinese character to mean their own function words.

The character "的 to" is the function words of Mandarin writing.
The character "嘅 ke" is the function words of Cantonese writing.
The characters "--eh 奚" and "e 兮" are the function words of Hokkian writing.

農 (lang/long): peh-thak-im; lang / bun-thak-im; long In ancient time, 農 lang (farmer) was the main group of a state, they were the citizins and had a field. In Hokkian language that preserve the meaning of ancient society, so we call the people 農 lang (famer).

In the Hokkian words, there has a word Peh-mor 白魔 to mean French. If Ang-mor 紅毛 (Dutch) is mean "red hair", then Peh-mor 白毛 (French) will mean "white hair". The French are not the people with white hair, unless those old persons. I prefer Ang-mor 紅魔 Dutch (mean the red alien), Peh-mor 白魔 French (mean the white alien), because they used the colour to mean these two nations, as the Chinese people used white, yellow, red, black to mean some branchs of a nation or a race. This joke Ang-mor 紅魔 were also speaking in southern Hokkian, Taiwan and the Philippines. In their speaking Ang-mor 紅魔 just means the Dutch only. But in the Singapore and Malaysia Ang-mor 紅魔 could be mean 1. the Dutch 2. the white person.

SL
Andrew

Post by Andrew » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:30 pm

I find it hard to believe that the possessive particle can sound so similar in all the southern Chinese languages, but they all use different characters.

I think the correct character is 個, whether it is Cantonese, Minnan, Wu or Hakka. I have no problem with using this for both the possessive particle and as a quantifier, as the pronunciation of both particles is the same in Hakka, Minnan and possibly Wu. Hence:

三個先生 = saN e sin sEN / sam ke sin sang
我個先生 = goa e sin sEN / ngai ke sin sang

In Minnan the particles can be pronounced ge, e or le. In Wu I believe the possessive particle can be pronounced ge or e and the quantifier ge, ga or ngie.
hong

Post by hong » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:26 pm

There are no ke/e sound for 個 in minnan .果攝開一 has no e vowel.
Posseesive e benzi is 之。It is a 上古 sound with k drop.cantonese /hakka also having this 之。
I still have no idea about e as 量詞
hong

Post by hong » Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:22 am

There is a classifier in cuanciu which is about the same with 个。It is 下 e (阳上)。tsit e tai tsi .tsit e bng kiann.
another use is 用于称量搭配成整体的东西或整体分成的部分。
Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:59 am

Hokkian: 個: peh-thak-im; kou / bun-thak-im; ko
Hokkian: chit-kou lang = 禃個 儂 (one person); chit-ko geh = 禃個 月 (one month)
Mandarin: ih-ko len 一個 人; ih-ko ie 一個 月
Cantonese: iah-kou ian 一個 人; iat-kou yit 一個 月
The 個 (kou / ko; in Hokkian) pronounce as "kou" in Cantonese that is similar as the colloquial reading of Hokkian speaking.
The 個 (kou / ko; in Hokkian) pronounce as "ko" in Mandarin that is similar as the literary reading of Hokkian speaking.

Choan-chiu style: 三 嘅 先生 = saN ke sin-sEN; 我 嘅 先生 = goa ke sin-sEN (there may be some counties of Choan-chiu apply "e".)
Chiang-chiu style: 三 le 先生 = saN le sin-sEN; 我 le 先生 = goa le sin-sEN (the "le" may be a Chiang-chiu style)
E-mng style: 三 兮 先生 = saN e sin-sEN; 我 兮 先生 = goa e sin-sEN

Hakka: 三 嘅 先生 = sam ke sin-sang; 我 嘅 先生 = ngai ke sin-sang
Cantonese: 三 嘅 先生 = sam ke sin-sang; 我 嘅 先生 = ngou ke sin-sang
Mandarin: 三 個 先生 = san ko sian-seng; 我 的 先生 = guo to sian-seng
These "ke", "e", and "eh" all could see in the Classic Chinese. I guess that the "ke" is the original sound, because this "ke" is also existing in the Tibetan language.

SL
Guest

Post by Guest » Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:05 am

> I still have no idea about "e" as 量詞

Although the character "兮 e" as a quantifier could not see in those Classic Chinese of Literature Chinese. But we need to know a knowledge that the "Hokkian (Chinese character) writing system" (or Mandarin (Chinese character), Cantonese (Chinese character), Hakka (Chinese character) etc.) is a "Logo-syllabic writing system", the "function word" in this kind of writing system usually select a character (function word) from those similar sound of a next character to express the syllable of a "function word".

As the examples of "ke", "le" and "e". The "ke" may be the original word, and "le", "e" are the local style, we should write the "ke" in Choan-chiu style, the "le" in Chiang-chiu style and the "e" in E-mng style. We need to see the "Logo-syllabic writing system" that is mean in this kind of writing system, some character is expressed in the "logogram" and some other characters is expressed in the "syllabogram".

These "function words" 嘅 ke, 兮 e, (?) le, 的 tek, 個 kou/ ko, they all express in the form of "syllabogram". These words 三 saN / sam, 量 niu / liong, 配 phoe / phe, 果 ke / ko, 開 khui / khai, they all express in the form of "logogram".

The character "之", I guess that is pronounced as "chit" as "禃 chit" in the Hokkian speaking.

SL
hong

Post by hong » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:40 am

SL ,I think you still have a lot to learn.cuanciu say ge is because of the last consonant t in tsit 蜀 It becomes tsik ge for some people. Many also say e and le in cuanciu.
之 middle chinese is just ci with no entering tone.It is krj--- consonant in older chinese.Buy a book called 江西客家方言概况,see page 281,2 for details.其 is a 假借 for it。
兮 is just 语气词 in ancient chinese like 诗经.
We have no problem for 个 as classifier in hakka and cantonese but we have problem in minnan.There is only one scholar from China 游汝杰 who said this is the correct hanzi 个 for minnan 。kai is the original sound in teochew and e is just 过渡音。People will not accept this kind of explanation.
He said this in his article 台语量词在南方方言里。。。(台语means 壮语等)
hong

Post by hong » Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:01 am

Lirulong's article
其在闽语普遍用作结构助词,相当于普通话的<的>,在沿海闽语又作量词。福州话用作量词时读重为ki,是其的本音,用作助词时读为轻声i .闽北闽中只用作助词。闽南的泉漳厦用作量词时读阳平 e,后连其他音节时变调,用作助词是念轻声e。如 go e lang ge=五个人的是与前音韵尾合音的现象。
潮州和海南用作量词及助词都是 kai
上古汉语有把其用于代词及副词之后作助词的。诗经--彼其之子。。。
其也有置于疑问代词之后的说法,怎样福州说 tsuong gi,泉州 tsiunn e ,闽语的其的多种用法可能就是从这里引申开去的。
He can't explain 其 as 量词 in old chinese.
Andrew

Post by Andrew » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:28 am

1. Hmm so is it 之 or 其?

2. What does 彼其之子 translate as?

3. If I use 個 to represent e5 as quantifier, is the meaning correct (I know the sound is incorrect)?
hong

Post by hong » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:26 pm

彼其之子,I have to email prof.刘纶鑫 about 之 appear along 其 in here.
之is the benzi.章太炎 is a famous scholar in last century.He said in his book called 新方言=江浙,广东诸方言的邻属助词革(或作格) 是从上古的其字发展而来的,上古常用其取代之。
尚书 朕其弟,小子封。
as for the sound in modern 之,it is like the word 家 from k changing into j consonant.The vowel also change as well.
another word is 是 ,In old chinese it is with consonant h but not with sh now.So the benzi for cantonese /hakka 判断动词 <he> isn't 系 but 是。
之 has a meaning of this /that,so I think minnan use it as a classifier.
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