A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
paul
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:53 pm

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by paul » Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:08 pm

Kobo -Daishi
'唐人街' is the usual term used in the UK for Chinatown, another less often heard term is 華埠(waa6 fau6)
Paul.
Mark
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:53 pm
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Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by Mark » Sun Dec 22, 2002 9:33 pm

tng-lang in BanLamOe means "Chinese person", however in Mandarin, tang-ren often refers to southerners.
Sim Lee

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by Sim Lee » Mon Dec 23, 2002 9:02 am

Kobo-Daishi

Re: >> Many southern Chinese also call China "Tang mountain"

Yes indeed. In Hokkien it's called "Tng-Sua~" (~ = nasalization).

-Sim.
ppk

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by ppk » Sun Dec 29, 2002 4:23 am

i think tang ren are northerners. when northeners migrate to the south in tang-song dynasty they probably called themselves tang ren to differentiate themselves with the locals, and this tradition is passed down.

some other reasons might be bcos of the silk road, as we know the silk road flourished in the tang dynasty. when chinese traded with foreigners they called themselves tang ren and bcame a habit.
ppk

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by ppk » Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:46 pm

another one speaking without understanding... re-emphasize: all chinese dialects are first of all, chinese. in wad way are the teochews and hokkiens different from other 'chinese'? they shared the same writing, culture, spoken language, wadever. didnt all the coastal cities flourished under chinese rule thruout chinese history? or did they actually 'suffered' as Diojiulnant said? please go and read up.
ppk

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by ppk » Wed Jan 01, 2003 11:50 am

The simple fact is that Ethnic Chinese, Chinese Mongol, Chinese Manchur-ese are all family of Chinese Turk stock - the real Chinese. Some Hakka Gia are also the same stock as the Chinese Turk. On the other hand you have the natives of East and Southeas Asia, they are the Indigenous Diojiulnants and Hokkians people.

-not a fact, but a claim by u alone.


Diojiulnants (Teochius) and Hokkians people are the only real indigenous people of South Minnant Lands (Southern China) and Mainland Southeast Asia, whose homelands had been invaded by the Chinese Han, Chinese Tang, and Chinese Mongol-Manchu despotism, and subsequently made it possible for the flood of Ethnic Chinese Turk and Ethnic Indo-Malay population, more precisely over-population, to perenially encroached upon their hosts' - Indigenous Diojiulnants and Hokkians - land and history, people, language, and Culture.

-teochew is by itself a chinese name, so is hokkien, minnan, wadever.


These Ethnic Indo-Turk (Chinese Turk and Ethnic Indo-Malay) can delude themselves about whose lands - Minnant Lands - they live on, but the truth will come out in the near future, and with equally forceness of an Freed and Independent Diojiulnants and Hokkiannants' full political resolution. There are abundant barely hidden but undeniable reality of the centuries of Ethnic Indo-Turk's colonialisation of the East written in the historical facts and archaeological evidence and artefacts.

-for example? which texts and which artifacts?

May God bless all Teochius and Hokkian people arround the world with this simple historical fact - Ethnic Chinese, Chinese nationals, Chinese Han and or Alien Chinese are one and the same as the Ethnic Indo-Malay of Malaysia or Indonesia - a family of Alien Ethnic Indo-Turk stocks. Hell the Chinese Singaporean public claimed that the Indo-Malay are their ancestors: Another evidence of the Ethnic Chinese-Turk and Ethnic Indo-Malay population's recognition of the common Indo-Turk families coming together and their overwhelming joy in the recognition of their successful colonialisation or according to the French pacification and assimulation of the Indigenous population of so-called "Chinese" into their Indo-Turk families. The new Teochius, Indigenous Diojiulnants and Hokkian people do NOT want their kind of Islamist or Confucianist civilisation - despotism and subjugation by Alien Indo-Turk's over population more like it.

-singaporeans do not claim 'indo-malay'(dont know wad u are talking about too, indo malay, indo turks etc, 'nomemclatures' as sum won had said...). teochius, diojiulnants or however u try to spell it, doesnt change anything.
Ken

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by Ken » Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:26 am

Many of the 'real' indigenous people of southeast China(non Han Chinese had been assimilated into the Han Chinese culture thru both peaceful and forceful ways. Some of their descendants, though Han Chinese are related to these indigenous people.

Those indigenous people who resisted Han assimilation include minority groups in Southwest China (Yunnan, Guangxi provinces) and probably the aboriginese in Taiwan. They still retain their own culture today.

Some of the northern Chinese too, though Han Chinese are also related to the Turks. I won't be surprised that Qin Shihuang, the first Emperor of China had Turkish blood as the Qin state in Western China was a place where both Han Chinese and Turks dwelled. Emperor Tang Taizhong himself also had Turkish blood. Zheng Chenggong or Koxinga had a Japanese mother.

What I am saying is 'What's the big deal?'. Whether u are pure Han Chinese or Chinese with minority blood, it doesn't matter, right? Please do not mistakingly interpret Chinese culture as one that is only Han centered. Although it is true that Han Chinese did wage war for territotrial expansion and ethnic assimilation, but please bear in mind that these expansionist movements were always accompanied with measures of pacification, rebuilding and education, which led to the present Chinese nation where both Han Chinese blended finely and constructively with the other non-Han groups, characterised with cultural enrichment in many ways. If not, the terms 'China' and 'Chinese' would never have come by.

Tell me, which big nation in the world did not go through the process the Chinese had. Russia, Britain? Try telling an Englishman that he is not real English simply because he is not pure Anglo-Saxon as one of his great grandmothers was a Celt! So what?! Does it really matter?!

I m very curious to know who the person that has been championing the rights for the 'indigenous' people of Southeast China is actually. Are u a Chinese? If u are, then I'll say that you are overly reactive. Though I respect u for the knowlege u have, I still have state this point: The present Chinese groups, be it the Hokkiens, Teochews, Cantonese, Hakkas and Hainanese; they are all Han Chinese or Chinese genetically and culturally even though a number of them, including you and myself maybe, are somehow related to the original indigenous people of Southern China, just like great Chinese Emperor Tang Taizhong was related to the Turks. Please understand that the present Hokkiens and Teochews 'are not' the pure indigenous people of Southeastern China as u claim. They are basically Han Chinese genetically and culturally but have relations with the indigenous people, that's all! No big deal, man! If the person I m refering to is a Chinese, then I must say that he is a very confused man, who has fallen into his own trap of deep knowledge drilling, but fail to recognise who he is actually. Think abt it, after so many years of assimilation between the Hans and the non-Hans, by your generation now, how many % of your genetics are that of the indigenous people; common sense tells u, very little anyway! If you are a Chinese, then you are! Those unrealistic theories on 'indigenous people' that deny one's own identity simply cannot elicit approval in all like-minded Chinese!
ppk

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by ppk » Thu Jan 02, 2003 9:26 am

was tang taizong related to the turks or huns? in my knowledge its the huns.
Ken

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by Ken » Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:55 am

Diojiulnant,

I can never agree with most of your views. For instance, U claim that the original motherland of the Chinese Turks are India and Turkey. Are you saying that the Han Chinese also originated from these places? What's the source of this piece of knowledge? Anyone with a logical knowledge of history would tell you that the origin of Chinese culture started from the yellow river regions, although it is true that the Indo-Turks moved from these places (India, Turkey) and somehow interacted with the Han Chinese.

After so many years of transmigration and assimilation, any Chinese can claim links with Han Chinese or Chinese Turks(as you like to use).
Please do not be so naive to think that the present Hokkiens and Teochews are still the pure indigenous Diojiulnants and Minnants as u claim. The Teochew dialect u are speaking now is actually a Han Chinese language brought down by the 'Chinese Turks' (who are actually Han Chinese)! You yourself are the product of your so called 'Chinese Turks Invasion'. Not to dissapoint you, but to tell the truth. Whether you like it or not, your ancestors were somehow part of this devious 'Chinese Turks scheme'. You are the descendant of the 'Chinese Turks' who once conquered Southeast China. If not, you won't be speaking Teochew now and won't have a Chinese surname. The only pure indigenous people of Southern China left are those who resist Han Assimilation and they are the minority groups in Guangxi, Yunnan and probably Taiwan(Aboriginals). Again, who knows, these indigenous people, just like the Hans, might have originated from the yellow river regions, who migrated from the north to the south much earlier than the Hans. ( I encountered such a theory before.).i.e. Han and non-Han Chinese might not be different anyway!

Unfortunately, u choose to deny your real identity. My dear friend, please flow with the time, your point can only be voiced out by the ancestors of those minority groups who refused assimilation 1,500 years ago. Even the present minority groups would not feel too passionate about your views, which only cause separatism and conflict. In fact, in China, these minority groups already claimed themselves Chinese, but of non-Han stock.

I am a Hokkien, but I'll always be a true blooded Chinese (specifically Han Chinese), irregardless of who my ancestors intermarried in the past. I believe this feeling is shared by all Hokkkiens, Fujianese and the other Chinese groups around the world. You are one of the rarest few who possess such 'unusual' view, which only disrupts unity among the Hokkiens, Fujianese and Chinese in general. To put it bluntly, you are fighting a 'LOOSING BATTLE' !
Ken

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by Ken » Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:24 am

Diojiulnant,

If I am not wrong, you seem to be saying that Han Chinese=Turks. If you really think so, I am afraid you have already lost even the most basic ability to differentiate. Does a Chinese look like a Turkish in the 1st place?
In the very beginning, the Turks were the Turks, the Han Chinese were the Han Chinese! Turkish and Chinese languages have different grammatical structures. They are not the same.

If my above opinion on you is wrong, I suppose The 'Chinese Turks' term that you use, refers to the 'Han Chinese', of whom some have Turkish blood. (i.e. some Turks were assimilated into the Han Chinese Culture, as happened in the Qin state, during the Warring Era).

You say that the humliating past of the Chinese has nothing to do with the Minants. Do you know what you are saying? Are you telling me that when China was attacked by foreign aggressors during the times of Western imperialism and 2nd World War, the provinces of Fujian and Guangdong were deliberately left out? Didn't the people of these provinces suffer and join in the wars to protect their loved ones? What about those Chinese in South East Asia? These people include your relatives and ancestors.
Those foreign invaders, driven by greed, simply attacked China as a whole. They were not interested in whether you were Han or non-Han Chinese.

A sincere advice from me, get your facts right! Any Hokkien, Hockchia(Fuzhou), Teochew, Hakka, Cantonese or Hainanese, who does not consider himself/herself an ethnic Chinese should not be offering 'perverse' views that only confuse the entire forum.
Kobo-Daishi

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by Kobo-Daishi » Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:08 am

Dear Paul,

You're right. I forgot we also call Chinatown 華埠 (Mand: hua2 bu4, wa4 fau6).

We call the Chinatown Service Center here in Southern California 華埠中心 (Mand: hua2 bu4 zhong1 xin1, Cant: wa4 fau6 jung1 sam1).

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
paul
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:53 pm

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by paul » Sun Jan 12, 2003 1:46 pm

Dear Kobo Daishi,
You wrote:
We call the Chinatown Service Center here in Southern California 華埠中心 (Mand: hua2 bu4 zhong1 xin1, Cant: wa4 fau6 jung1 sam1).
Here in London the Chinese Community Centre is called '華人社會中心'(Wa4 Jan4 Se5 Wui6 Jung1 Sam1)
I know that this is off topic but I find it very interesting when you put little examples of 台 山 話. Although I am English, I am able to speak Cantonese. My wife is from Hong Kong and my mother- in-law came originally from 台 山 area,also one of our close friends here in England is from 恩平(which is I believe like 台 山 also 四邑)It would be interesting for me to pick up some 台 山 話, even though I normally communicate with my mother- in-law and our friends in Cantonese.
Apologies to all the Hokkien /Teochew people for using their forum to raise a Cantonese language question.
Wishing everyone in anticipation " 恭喜發財 "
Paul
Lim Eng Di

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by Lim Eng Di » Sun Jan 12, 2003 4:35 pm

This whole Chinese-Turk thing is getting tiresome.

Ken: Thank you for trying to put some reason in this whole "purity" argument. I would've gone crazy trying to deal with it myself.

Diojiunant: I've scanned much of your writings, and have come to the conclusion that what you are saying is not very logical. I don't see the point of your attempts of claiming that Minnan people are opressed by so-called "Chinese-Turks". I understand what may have caused you to feel this way, but you are making this forum into a big eyesore. Please try to refrain from plastering it with your propagandha. I don't mean any personal offense to you.
Ken

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by Ken » Fri Jan 17, 2003 10:23 am

Diojiulnant,

Using just layman logical deductions, please explain for the wide difference between the various Chinese languages-dialects and the various Indo-Turkish languages in terms of grammar and pronunciations if you insist that Han Chinese is absolutely = Turks. Hokkien along with other dialects possess vastly similar linguistic features with Mandarin than any Indo-Turkish language. In the first place, the people don't even look identical. Anyone can see that a Hokkien looks more like a Chinese from Beijing than a pure Turk. How do you explain?

Secondly, please do not redefine history. Koxinga's reclaimation of Taiwan was not an act of territorial independance. He always called himself a Han Chinese and staunch Ming dynasty loyalist. His intention was to use Taiwan as a base to fight off the Manchus, so that eventually, he could help bring China back to the Han Chinese Ming rule. If he were still alive today, he would fervently support the idea of reunification with Mainland China. Zheng Chenggong is absolutely anti Taiwan's Independance! Please do not disturb the peaceful soul of this great legendary Chinese Hero by giving him a disgraceful name.
ppk

Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

Post by ppk » Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:38 am

show your ignorance somewhere else. 'zhongguo ren' during confucian time doesnt represent a country or a nationality. 'zhongguo' means the capital of the various states, or the place where the zhou emperor is. and 'guo' is just a feudal estate, not a 'country'. the idea of 'zhongguo ren' as a national identity for the mainlanders only came around qing dynasty. and your over simpification of confucianism doesnt gets you anywhere.

china is a name given by westerners, indians, in fact. ancient chinese never called themselves china or chinese. again, 'china' was used to represent the country and land of mainlanders during the qing dynasty.

u called han dynasty 'chinese turk' as opposed to ur 'Diojiulnants and Hokkian'? my god, both liu bang and xiangyu was from the state of chu, the land of ur so-called minnants and aboriginal east asians. please, go pick up some geography and historical facts.
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