Minnan relationship chart

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
xng
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Minnan relationship chart

Post by xng » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:19 am

Relationship chart between the various Min languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min_Chinese#Varieties

Essentially, the 'greater' minnan group are

1. Quanzhou
2. Zhangzhou
3. Amoy/Taiwan
4. Teochiu
5. Puxian (Hing hua)
6. Hainanese
7. Datian ?
SimL
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by SimL » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:06 am

Thanks for this - a very nice article.

If one looks at the "View History"-tab, there have been quite a large number of contributors to this article from 2003 to now - more than 250 edits, which is more than 25 edits a year, which is more than 2 edits a month.

If one looks at the top 10 editors:

Kwamikagami - 17 edits
GnuDoyng - 11 edits
163.1.16.71 - 10 edits
Hongthay - 10 edits
ASDFGH - 9 edits
Kaihsu - 9 edits
109.246.20.218 - 6 edits
130.245.233.132 - 6 edits
71.172.56.67 - 6 edits
Tricia Takanawa - 5 edits

So, there is quite a large number of people who are interested in (and know a lot about) Min languages. What surprises me is why I don't see some of them here... (or maybe ah-bin, niuc, mark, and amhoanna do this stuff on Wikipedia under a different name :mrgreen:).
SimL
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by SimL » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:56 am

Reading related links on Wikipedia led me to this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Written_Hokkien, which has the following line in it:

"In 2007, the Ministry of Education of the Republic of China formulated and released a standard character set to overcome these difficulties. These standard Chinese characters for writing Taiwanese Hokkien are now taught in schools in Taiwan."

Does anyone know how to get hold of this list? If so, I'd be very happy to have it, either posted as an reply here, or mailed to me. Perhaps people who can actually read Chinese and google in Chinese might like to try, as a favour to me? I'd like to see this list, quite independently of my opinion of whether or not a particular character they've chosen is "suitable". As with Ah-bin adopting POJ rather than "modified POJ", I'd be willing to put aside my own personal preferences, if there is a standard which has some chance of success.
Mark Yong
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by Mark Yong » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:20 pm

Hi, Sim,

I did a Google search using "臺灣閩南語推薦用字 site:www.edu.tw" as the search string, and these are the links that came up:

1. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字(第1批) (http://www.edu.tw/files/bulletin/M0001/ ... 960523.pdf)
2. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字(第2批) (http://www.edu.tw/files/bulletin/M0001/ ... 970501.pdf)
3. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字(第3批) (http://www.edu.tw/files/bulletin/MANDR/ ... 990915.pdf)
4. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字 700 (http://www.edu.tw/files/site_content/M0 ... D/D005.pdf)

I am very sure I have seen these lists before, but just cannot recall where (Ah-bin might have passed them to me at some stage). It will come back to me soon.
amhoanna
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by amhoanna » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:22 pm

Yup, 163.1.16.71 -- that's me! Just kidding. :lol: For some reason, I find this article kind of annoying, although it's really not that bad compared to others we've all seen.
SimL
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by SimL » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:04 pm

Hi Mark,

>> 1. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字(第1批) (http://www.edu.tw/files/bulletin/M0001/ ... 960523.pdf)
>> 2. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字(第2批) (http://www.edu.tw/files/bulletin/M0001/ ... 970501.pdf)
>> 3. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字(第3批) (http://www.edu.tw/files/bulletin/MANDR/ ... 990915.pdf)
>> 4. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字 700 字 (http://www.edu.tw/files/site_content/M0 ... D/D005.pdf)

Many thanks for finding these. They look exciting, and I'll be able to use them in a possibly new project I'm working on.


Hi amhoanna,

>> For some reason, I find this article kind of annoying

Can you put your finger on what you found annoying about the article?
amhoanna
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by amhoanna » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:29 pm

Can you put your finger on what you found annoying about the article?
1. They use Mandarin names for everything. They wouldn't do this for an article about Korean or Vietnamese, so why for Hoklo and Teochew? They don't mind learning a "new system" of names for Korean and Vietnamese, so why not Hoklo and Teochew?

2. It regurgitates the "conventional", conservative line of scholarship, the guys who classify the "dialect / topolect" of each county based on the "readings" of kanji in the language of the county seat...

3. Wrong statements that come from the 3rd hand reproduction of knowledge. In what way is "Min Dong" considered a standard in "Fujian"?

4. Even the "history" section is just a regurgitation of the history of Han settlement in the "Min" area, written from a Yellow River POV. I guess this is the key phrase: YELLOW RIVER POINT OF VIEW.
SimL
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by SimL » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:59 pm

Hi amhoanna,

Yes, after I posed my question to you, I thought about it, and guessed that it might be connected to how "smug" the article was, as if the branching into the different sub-groups and sub-sub-groups was very clear and regular.

>> written from a Yellow River POV

Well, many years ago, for a period of a few months, we had a very enthusiastic poster here, who despised "The Northerners", and felt that the "real" Chinese were the Hokkiens. Mandarin was just some bastardized Mongol- and Manchu-invasion mish-mash :mrgreen:. Sadly, the moderators removed most of his writings, which were very polemic and extreme. Of course, I'm not trying to imply that you are any way in that direction, but your statement did make me think back to the guy :P.
amhoanna
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by amhoanna » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:15 am

and guessed that it might be connected to how "smug" the article was, as if the branching into the different sub-groups and sub-sub-groups was very clear and regular.
Good point.
a very enthusiastic poster here, who despised "The Northerners", and felt that the "real" Chinese were the Hokkiens. Mandarin was just some bastardized Mongol- and Manchu-invasion mish-mash :mrgreen:
Sounds like he made an ass of himself. Mongols and Manchus are people too. :mrgreen:
xng
Posts: 386
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by xng » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:57 pm

Mark Yong wrote:Hi, Sim,

I did a Google search using "臺灣閩南語推薦用字 site:www.edu.tw" as the search string, and these are the links that came up:

1. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字(第1批) (http://www.edu.tw/files/bulletin/M0001/ ... 960523.pdf)
2. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字(第2批) (http://www.edu.tw/files/bulletin/M0001/ ... 970501.pdf)
3. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字(第3批) (http://www.edu.tw/files/bulletin/MANDR/ ... 990915.pdf)
4. 臺灣閩南語推薦用字 700 (http://www.edu.tw/files/site_content/M0 ... D/D005.pdf)

I am very sure I have seen these lists before, but just cannot recall where (Ah-bin might have passed them to me at some stage). It will come back to me soon.
Unfortunately, some are not benzi and some have even several different characters instead of the benzi.
Pier
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Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Minnan Relationship Chart

Post by Pier » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:11 am

I read with interest regarding this interesting and important topic. Recently, I found an article from the English newspaper published in Xiamen China about the MINNAN (Hokkien/Hoklo/Teochew/Leizhou/Hainan) Language or dialects:- 'Xiamen and its Southern Fujian districts' dialect or Min Nan”- Updated: 18 Mar 2010 which include the map of the distribution of the various group of Minnan speaking peoples. Probably some of the informations were retrieved from Wikipedia which include an expert opinions.

Ref: http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/xiamen-info-677.html

Xiamen and its Southern Fujian districts' dialect or Min Nan
Updated: 18 Mar 2010

The Southern Min languages, or Min Nan (simplified Chinese: 闽南语; traditional Chinese: 閩南語; pinyin: Mǐnnán Yǔ; Pe̍h-ōe-jī: Bân-lâm-gí/Bân-lâm-gú; literally "Southern Fujian language"), is a family of Chinese languages which are spoken in southern Fujian and neighboring areas, and by descendants of emigrants from these areas in diaspora.

In common parlance, Southern Min usually refers to the Hokkien dialect outside China, in particular the Amoy and Taiwanese. Amoy and Taiwanese are both combinations of Quanzhou and Zhangzhou speech. The Southern Min family also includes Teochew and Hainanese. Teochew has limited mutual intelligibility with the Amoy. However, Hainanese is generally not considered to be mutually intelligible with any other Southern Min variants.

Southern Min forms part of the Min language group, alongside several other divisions. The Min languages/dialects are part of the Chinese language group, itself a member of the Sino-Tibetan language family. Southern Min is not mutually intelligible with Eastern Min, Cantonese, or Mandarin. As with other varieties of Chinese, there is a political dispute as to whether the Southern Min language should be called a language or a dialect.

Rough division map of Min Nan dialects :
Ref: http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/xiamen-info-677.html

Phylogenetic Dialects classification:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varieties_of_Chinese;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Min_languages



Geographic distribution

Southern Min is spoken in the southern part of Fujian province, three southeastern counties of Zhejiang province, the Zhoushan archipelago off Ningbo in Zhejiang, and the eastern part of Guangdong province (Chaoshan region). The Qiong Wen variant spoken in the Leizhou peninsula of Guangdong province, as well as Hainan province, which is not mutually intelligible with standard Minnan or Teochew, is classified in some schemes as part of Southern Min and in other schemes as separate.

A form of Southern Min akin to that spoken in southern Fujian is also spoken in Taiwan, where it has the native name of Tâi-oân-oē or Hō-ló-oē. The (sub)ethnic group for which Southern Min is considered a native language is known as the Holo (Hō-ló) or Hoklo, the main ethnicity of Taiwan. The correspondence between language and ethnicity is generally true though not absolute, as some Hoklo have very limited proficiency in Southern Min while some non-Hoklos speak Southern Min fluently.

There are many Southern Min speakers also among overseas Chinese in Southeast Asia. Many ethnic Chinese emigrants to the region were Hoklo from southern Fujian, and brought the language to what is now Indonesia (the former Dutch East Indies) and present day Malaysia and Singapore (formerly Malaya, Burma, and the British Straits Settlements). In general, Southern Min from southern Fujian is known as Hokkien, Hokkienese, Fukien or Fookien in Southeast Asia, and is very much like Taiwanese. Many Southeast Asian ethnic Chinese also originated in the Chaoshan region of Guangdong province and speak Teochew, the variant of Southern Min from that region. Southern Min is reportedly the native language of up to 98.5% of the community of ethnic Chinese in the Philippines, among whom it is also known as Lan-nang or Lán-lâng-oē ("Our people’s language"). Southern Min speakers form the majority of Chinese in Singapore with the largest being Hoklos and the second largest being the Teochews.

Classification

Southern Fujian is home to three main Amoy dialects. They are known by the geographic locations to which they correspond (listed north to south):

Quanzhou (Chinchew) (泉州)
Xiamen (Amoy) (厦门)
Zhangzhou (Changchew) (漳州)

As Xiamen is the principal city of southern Fujian, the Xiamen dialect is considered the most important, or even prestige dialect. The Xiamen dialect is a hybrid of the Quanzhou and Zhangzhou dialects. The Xiamen dialect (also known as the Amoy dialect) has played an influential role in history, especially in the relations of Western nations with China, and was one of the most frequently learned of all Chinese languages/dialects by Westerners during the second half of the 19th century and the early 20th century.

The variants of Southern Min spoken in Zhejiang province are most akin to that spoken in Quanzhou. The variants spoken in Taiwan are similar to the three Fujian variants, and are collectively known as Taiwanese. Taiwanese is used by a majority of the population and is quite important from a socio-political and cultural perspective, forming the second most important, if not the more influential pole of the language due to the popularity of Taiwanese Hokkien media. Those Southern Min variants that are collectively known as "Hokkien" in Southeast Asia also originate from these variants. The variants of Southern Min in the Chaoshan region of eastern Guangdong province are collectively known as Teochew or Chaozhou. Teochew is of great importance in the Southeast Asian Chinese diaspora, particularly in Malaysia, Philippines, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Sumatra and western Kalimantan.

The Southern Min language variant spoken around Shanwei and Haifeng differs markedly from Teochew and may represent a later migration from Zhangzhou. Linguistically, it lies between Teochew and Amoy. In southwestern Fujian, the local variants in Longyan and Zhangping form a separate division of Min Nan on their own. Among ethnic Chinese inhabitants of Penang, Malaysia and Medan, Indonesia, a distinct form of Zhangzhou (Changchew) Hokkien has developed. In Penang, it is called Penang Hokkien while across the Malacca Strait in Medan, an almost identical variant is known as Medan Hokkien.

The cultural and political value of Min Nan Language/Dialects

Jean DeBernardi of the University of Alberta stated that Min Nan, is a Sinitic language with more than 38 millions users, which is 4% of the 1 billion speakers of Sinitic languages. The Min Nan user are in parts of Fujian province, Northeastern Guangdong, Hainan, Taiwan, Southeast Asia, Thailand,Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, and the Philippines. In addition to it's high social value as a marker of in-group status among the various communities, it has acquired an additional political value in Taiwan, representing the aspirations of the Taiwanese independence movement in the face of fears of reunification with Mainland China.

Jean DeBernardi considered calling Min Nan a ‘dialects’ "is a misnomer", as the languages of China are as diverse as Romance languages. When Northern China is claimed to be relatively homogeneous linguistically (Jerry Norman observes that “many varieties of Mandarin in Shanxi and the Northwest are totally incomprehensible to a Beijing speaker”), Southern China have six major ‘dialect’ groups, which are mutually incomprehensible tongues.

Since the Guomindang's 1945 Mainland China's defeat and hence retreat to Taiwan, Mandarin has been encouraged at the expense of Taiwanese, and Min Nan, though spoken by an estimated 80% of the Taiwan population , has been regarded as "a substandard language with no grammar and no written form, inadequate and unsuitable for cultivated discussion”

---- END ----
SimL
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by SimL » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:18 am

Hi Piers,

Thanks for posting these links.

I think one interesting aspect about the Xiamen link is not just the information it contains, but the fact that the information is being put out there. From previous postings on this Forum you might have seen that generally the PRC and Singapore governments discourage the so-called "dialects". Yet, I suspect that, at a grass-roots level - both in the PRC and in Singapore - there is still some interest in - and emotional attachment to - these original south Sinitic languages. And as both these governments gradualy "liberalize", more and more information about them will be available, either from private individuals, or even in a semi-governmental context.

Aside from that, it's probably good to repeat Amhoanna's (and Ah-bin's) warning about information like this (in the Xiamen link as well as the Wikipedia ones). Namely, that they present a very simplified picture of the reality. All of it is "a bit too neat". Now, I have absolutely nothing against "neatness". History (and "Life"!) is so messy and complicated that one would never get anywhere if one insisted on presenting and understanding "The Full Picture" (if, indeed - philosophically - such a thing even exists). So, as a "general rough guide" / "introductory picture", these sorts of trees and diagrams and explanations are actually great. But one should be aware that they are massive simplifications of reality.

[This was brought home to me some time ago on this Forum (and outside), when there was a discussion about "What is Cantonese". It was only around this time that I realised that "Sei Yap" (who often consider themselves to be Cantonese) are, linguistically speaking, not Cantonese (even though they are indeed a variety of Yue). So, here, the question of "identity" also comes into it, making things even more complicated.]

And lastly, again, I'd like to draw attention to something (I think) Amhoanna said. He pointed out that the following statement (in various forms) is often made, when Hokkien is spoken about:

"As Xiamen is the principal city of southern Fujian, the Xiamen dialect is considered the most important, or even prestige dialect."

The quote (in this particular wording) comes from the Xiamen-link.

I thought it was very perceptive of Amhoanna to be irritated by and to challenge (variants of) this statement. It does indeed (as he points out) seem to be one of these "well-known facts" which people will regularly assert. But, to what extent is it actually true? It was perhaps true in 1900, but a lot has happened since then. In particular, two really important shifts: 1) The centre of "Hokkien" (in the wider sense) cultural production has moved totally and overwhelmingly over to Taiwan. 2) Amoy (from some points of view) is no longer even a Hokkien-speaking city!

It's almost like saying "Vienna is the capital of the powerful and important Austro-Hungarian Empire"! We need to be careful not to simply accept and repeat "well-known facts", without thinking more critically about them :P.

So, to summarize, please don't think that I'm criticizing such articles, or that I don't appreciate your posting references to them here. On the contrary, I'm really happy that you took the trouble to read them, and wanted to share their content with the rest of the Forum. And (as I said) such articles are actually great for getting a first view of reality. But I just wanted to sound a warning about some of the simplications (or perhaps even inaccuracies) involved.
Pier
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by Pier » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:32 am

QUOTE "But, to what extent is it actually true? It was perhaps true in 1900, but a lot has happened since then. In particular, two really important shifts: 1) The centre of "Hokkien" (in the wider sense) cultural production has moved totally and overwhelmingly over to Taiwan. 2) Amoy (from some points of view) is no longer even a Hokkien-speaking city!”

Hi, SimL ,
Thank you for the detailed explanation. I fully agree with your explanation on the 2 points quoted above.
When I visited Xiamen in the last 3 years, I observed that Xiamen is becoming another city like Shenzhen, Shanghai, Suzhou, Hangzhou, Fuzhou etc where local dialects were overwhelmed by Mandarin usage due to the the inter-province residents/migrants who are not willing to learn or assimilated to Amoy/Minnan dialects and culture. In Xiamen, almost all taxi drivers were migrants from Hunan while service sectors and office staffs are from other inner or poor western provinces. None of them really speak any Minnan dialects. In fact the young generations in Xiamen hardly speak or fluent in Minnan anymore. Sad fact to know. Many cultural practice of Minnan peoples is not even celebrated anymore in Fujian esp those related to temple and religious belief since banned during Mao’s Cultural Revolution.

Until recently, the government of PRC had now realise that the "Minnan” Language, Cultural & Heritage is something that are of economic value to “link" to the overseas Chinese for business, investments and tourism. The most important link is to integrate (absorb) Taiwan into Mainland China. Other reasons is SEA such as Malaysia, Singapore etc due the the economic and investment link.

Another surprise is the China Government plan to integrate “The Minnan Triangle” into a Mega City of almost 18.0 millions populations. The plan is to link together the city of Xiamen, Quanzhou and Zhangzhou as the Minnan Triangle/One Mega City. This new mega city to rival Shanghai, Chongqing, Beijing. While this will benefits the Minnan peoples prosperity in the area, what i worried is the new inter-province migrants flooding this prosperous Minnan City and change the language landscape which will lead to this Minnan areas losing the Minnan language and heritage.

In China all dialects are fast declining in usage with probably the exception of Yue (Cantonese) and to some extent the Minnan(Taiwanese/Hokkien). This two dialects still have the radio and TV station broadcasting exclusively in the two dialects in China till today. There is one TV station in Xiamen and another one at Quanzhou that broadcast entirely 100% in Minnan dialect, with most programs produced locally or imported from Taiwan. While Cantonese and Minnan is declining in speakers in Mainland China, but due to the popularity of Hong Kong and Taiwanese language broadcast media (Drama, Movies, Songs etc), the dialects decline is cushioned to a much slower rate than other dialects such as Wu(Shanghai), Gan(Jiangxi), Mindong(Fuzhou), Kejia, Xiang (Hunan) etc.

It will be a sad scenario that in 25 - 30 years, when most Chinese dialects will be "almost wipe-out" in China with exception of Cantonese and Minnan.

What can we do about the decline in the usage (speakers) of our beloved Minnan/Hokkien/Hoklo/Teochew/Hainanese/Taiwanese language? :shock: :cry:
Pier
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by Pier » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:47 am

Hi, Sim L,

Another news articles (from Reuters) to share with you about the growing important of Minnan's Language & Peoples by the Mainland China government in recent times.

Minnan dialect or Hokkien is China's global Fujianese connections

BEIJING (Reuters Life!) - China is hoping to make big money from supporting a once marginalized and repressed regional language which is widely spoken in affluent Taiwan and many Chinese communities in Southeast Asia, including Singapore.

Hokkien, which is termed a dialect in China but cannot be understood by Mandarin speakers, comes from southeastern Fujian province and, due to centuries of immigration, is the native tongue of around 80 percent of Taiwanese.

In Taiwan, where Hokkien is usually called Taiwanese, its public use was once suppressed by the Nationalist government, which pushed Mandarin as the official language. But it is now widely used once again, as an expression of national pride.

Now, China is hoping to make some money from those linguistic links and the Hokkien Cultural Renaissance. In China itself, where the government has also tried to remove dialects from the official arena, Hokkien is being given greater prominence.

"Cultural industries in the whole province are increasingly important, and Hokkien opera and other folk operas have deep roots," Luo Jian, the Fujian government's deputy general secretary, told a news conference.

Fujian's first cross-strait culture expo last year saw some 5 billion yuan ($US732 million) of contracts signed, and the second one to be held later this year hopes to build on that, he said.

"There is a vast amount of space for cross-strait cultural exchange and cooperation," Luo added.

The expo will feature traditional Hokkien singing competitions as well as other aspects of the native culture.

"Everyone knows, Fujian and Taiwan are separated only by a narrow strip of water, and blood is thicker than water," said provincial government spokesman Zhu Qing.

The event will give Taiwan companies a chance to sell their television shows and cartoons to a wider audience, Luo added.

"Though these industries are quiet well developed in Taiwan, their market is limited, and they need to develop outside and sell abroad," he said.

China and Taiwan have for decades promoted Mandarin as their national languages, seeing it as a unifying force in a culture with thousands of mutually unintelligible dialects.

China has claimed sovereignty over Taiwan since defeated Nationalist forces fled to the island in 1949 ahead of the advancing Communists, and has vowed to bring Taiwan under mainland rule, by force if necessary.

Yet since Taiwan President Ma Ying-jeou took office last year, the China-friendly leader has eased tension through trade and tourism deals.

Part of China's recent policy toward Taiwan has been to encourage cultural exchanges. Taiwanese actors and singers are hugely popular in China, where they are seen as cooler and more sophisticated than their mainland counterparts.

In the past, Taiwanese pop stars have been banned from singing in Hokkien in China and films and soap operas have been dubbed into Mandarin, though that is starting to change as the language policy eases and government ties warm.

SOURCE: Reuters by Ben Blanchard
Ref: http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/news6823.html
amhoanna
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Re: Minnan relationship chart

Post by amhoanna » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:10 pm

Hi, Sim and Pier--

My observation is that Banlamese ("Minnan" in Mandarin), at least in China, is dying faster than Teochew and Hoisan. The atmosphere is different throughout the province of Kwongtung 廣東. It is southern kingship. It is Tang plurality, alive in Kwongtung; vs the crushing Mogul monoculture of the Mongol and Manchu kings of China and the PR of C.
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