Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the field

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
siamiwako
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby siamiwako » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:51 pm

I've listened to Wang Li's track and yes I can say it's the same old familiar hokkien accent!

Accents that I noticed suggest the speaker is not from 顏市, at least from my observation, I usually associate them with Metro Manila (I could be wrong on this though):
(Vocab = MM pronunciation/ZC pronunciation)
明白 = beng piak/beng pek
朋友 = piang yu/peng yu
(not found in track)白色 = peh siak/peh shek (where h is a bit fuzzied) hence when we say 黑色 we say o-shek which sounds like we're talking behind 胡適's back!!!

I think MM accent is more closer to native coanciu/amoy accent.

Has anyone noticed Filipino Chinese say tak-tseh "讀冊" as oppose to tak-tsu (TW?) "讀書"??
甚麼時候 for 甚麼時(陣?)?? Some people say ti-si (在時?? I reckon it should be 幾時) for when.
I know 陣 is read as tin (e.g. 雁陣 gan-tin 打前陣 pah-cian-tin)

Ask a student where's he going and he'll say oh-teng 學堂 as oppose to hak-hao 學校.

I was told that the word "Intsik/in-chik" comes from the word 引叔 where 引 means 他們/他家 = 他(們/家)叔

I also noticed a slightly higher tone on 好
好運 = 虎運 (from track) I say 河運. Maybe it's just me - an oddball :lol:

I hardly hear people use tse-tsi for 現在, aside from my cousin in-law from Manila. I usually say tse-tsun (I guess word is 這陣) or tseh to shorten the word.
Last edited by siamiwako on Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:49 am, edited 7 times in total.

siamiwako
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby siamiwako » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:06 pm

amhoanna wrote:
I actually struggled this subject back then.

This is interesting! Learning Tagalog in a city where a Spanish creole is the go-to language.

:lol:

I guess having a provincial dialect adds extra burden on us - 1 main dialect (閩南) 3 main languages (英華菲) + 1 another local dialect! Or maybe it's just me? :mrgreen:

Thinking back what my priorities were (in descending order) when I was in high school:
1. 閩南
2. 英語/華語(we call it 國語 back then)
3. 本地方言
4. 菲語

This should explain why my Tagalog is really bad.

Ah-bin
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby Ah-bin » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:17 am

I guess having a provincial dialect adds extra burden on us - 1 main dialect (閩南) 3 main languages (英華菲) + 1 another local dialect! Or maybe it's just me?


Just a comment on English terminology. "Dialect" in the technical sense used by linguists means any variation of a language, whether localised, standardised or otherwise. According to this definition, Mandarin is a dialect as well.

So if you count 閩南 as a dialect you have to class 華語 as a dialect as well, and therefore you actually speak three main languages, but you know two dialects of one language (Chinese).

The confusion comes through a mistranslation of the term 方言 into English when it does not mean the same thing. Use of the mistranslation in English is encouraged by several Chinese organisations and regimes, but not all of them. In Taiwan, Hakka and Hokkien are officially known as 鄉土語言 "local languages". By the Taiwanese definition you speak four languages.

方言 refers to localised dialects (i.e. 閩南) but excludes the standard dialect 華語, so if you are writing in Chinese you can say 三種語言,一種方言, and it is correct, but to translate it into English as "Three languages and one dialect" when referring to the combination above, that would be technically incorrect, since 方言 and dialect don;t mean exactly the same thing.

If you are referring to the non-technical sense of the word "dialect" then the usage in both languages is about the same, except that people in China often refer to any localised language within the boundaries of China as a 方言 whether it is related to Chinese or not.

Sorry to be picky, but the three English words that are most harmful to the continued use of any kind of Chinese other than Mandarin are "just a dialect", as they put Mandarin on a higher level and denigrate all the others. If constantly reminding people that (at least in English) Mandarin is "just a dialect" too dissuades over-proud Mandarin speakers from thinking that they are something special compared to Hokkien/Hakka/Cantonese etc. speakers.

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby amhoanna » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:44 pm

The Pinoy usage of the word "dialect" is JUST like the Chinese usage of "fangyan". I've heard Chavacano referred to as a dialect too. A dialect of what? The Pinoy English word "dialect" doesn't seem to imply there being a language attached to it. I've heard the "language = dialect with army and navy" quote pretty often in the Phils.

The perception of Hoklo and Hakka as "not real languages" is alive and well in Taiwan too, unfort. Cry the beloved ROC-washed rakyat. :cry:

It's cool that Siamiwako's "priority language" was Hoklo even when he was in high school, with all the pressures that go with that (high school). 8)

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby amhoanna » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:57 pm

Thanks for commenting on the recordings, SMWK.

Have U heard Cebu Hoklo? Would U say that it sounds different?

I never heard the word ce6-ci3 (could be ce7-ci3, ce7-ci7, ce6-ci7) for NOW before these recordings. I like the sound of it. In TW the usual word is cim2-ma2. This may or may not come from a hypothetical cit4-ma2 form. Cit4 cun7 is used in TW too. I'm agnostic as to whether that kanji is the true one.

Thakche' and thakcu are both used in TW. Most people seem to use one or the other. Thakcu is mostly used by older people in places where the Hoklo skews Coanciu. Mainstream TWese uses thakche'. O'tng was probably in the vocab till some point in the 20th cen.

Interesting theory on intsik. Could it be related to Malay encik, meaning SIR (moderately respectful)?

Would love to hear Zamboanga Hoklo sometime, complete with its loanwords from Bisaya, Spanish, etc.

Ah-bin
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby Ah-bin » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:07 pm

O'tng was probably in the vocab till some point in the 20th cen.


I thought Taiwanese used Chu-pâng 書房 (or was it su-pâng?) for those traditional Chinese schools before the Japanese introduced the concept of gakkou 學校 (schools based on western educational systems). The 書房 were banned in Taiwan in 1930, I believe.

siamiwako
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby siamiwako » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:19 pm

amhoanna wrote:I've heard Chavacano referred to as a dialect too. A dialect of what? The Pinoy English word "dialect" doesn't seem to imply there being a language attached to it.

I would have thought dialect is a spoken language from a region in lesser number against the general population. I'm not a linguist myself hence, I could be politically incorrect here.

I've heard of Chavacano from Luzon with Tagalog influence but I've never came across one myself, so I might end up probably saying ZC Chavacano is a dialect of ZC province (?)

amhoanna wrote:It's cool that Siamiwako's "priority language" was Hoklo even when he was in high school, with all the pressures that go with that (high school). 8)

To be honest, the way we were taught Chinese in school is a bit different, it's a mix of Mandarin and Hokkien. We read texts, memorise sentences and shortened literature (唐詩 - 絕句 or extracted four lines from 律詩). But discussions will be in colloquial Hokkien, just like everyday conversation. Strange isn't it? All I can say is that we were encouraged to speak Hokkien inside school campus back then. :shock:
Last edited by siamiwako on Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

siamiwako
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby siamiwako » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:30 pm

amhoanna wrote:Have U heard Cebu Hoklo? Would U say that it sounds different?

Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to speak to someone who's a local from Cebu or from any Visayas region.

amhoanna wrote:Interesting theory on intsik. Could it be related to Malay encik, meaning SIR (moderately respectful)?

I believe it may not be realted to Malay encik at all. The word intsik in Philippines refers to people from Chinese background, including those born and raised in Philippines.

amhoanna wrote:Would love to hear Zamboanga Hoklo sometime, complete with its loanwords from Bisaya, Spanish, etc.

I guess you may need to travel down south next time but it's a bit dodgy and I don't recommend you doing this. 8)

haroldmanila
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby haroldmanila » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:37 am

when I was at my teens, my aunts who lives in Bacolod went here in Manila. I would hear them talk in Bacolod mix with hokkien. Their dominant accent is Bacolod which is I think is a subdialect of Bisaya.


Accents:

Bisaya is the language majority of Bisayan speaks like in Cebu. But like the Chinese Language they have their variations. Like hokkien, cantonese, mandarin, etc.

Cebu, Leyte, Davao, Cagayan de Oro - the “normal” bisaya, when angry it shows, when happy it also shows. Their language is called “cebuano”

Bacolod, Iloilo - the “romantic” bisaya, subdialect, means no matter how angry and shouting the person is, you will still hear the softness of his/her anger.

Waray - the “angry” bisaya, subdialect, When they talk you would assume that they are angry but in truth that is their normal way of talking.

Surigao - the “romantic” cebuano language. Like the Iloilo accent but with cebuano language.

Bohol - the “hard” bisaya, subdialect, They pronounce the words in a hard accent.


These are just some of the Bisayas. My wife is from Leyte, speaking cebuano bisaya.


The “intsik” here as I remember on TV explaning the origin was from the word “a chiak” or “a chek” it is “uncle” in English, in Hokkien, it is the younger brother of my father. And through the years it evolved into “intsik” since Filipinos back then can’t pronounce hokkien. The spokeperson of the Chinese community of Manila in Chinatown Ms. Teresita Ang See said lets us not use the word “intsik”, maybe, first, it is hard to pronounce, second it is in pure form Chinese. So, she suggested using “chinoy” a coined word from “chinese” and “pinoy”. It is from the two race that will show cooperation and harmony.

I remember when I was a kid, Filipino children would chant
“intsik bejo, tulo laway”

“intsik” - means Chinese
“bejo” - be-hu - horse’s powder or horse droppings. A person’s level or status is only
animal droppings.
“tulo” - tagalog for dripping
“laway” - tagalog word for saliva. A deeper meaning would probably mean poor or no
money person.

Hence, “ Chinese are horse’s droppings, dripping saliva”

The history of “horse’s dropping” is probably when in the old days Chinese are operators of “calesa” Spanish for horsedrawn carriage. And their horse would drop droppings anywhere in Binondo. Then the droppings would dry up and be blown all over the streets of binondo. Now “calesas” are still in use, but the operators are now Filipinos.

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby amhoanna » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:26 pm

Harold,

Thanks for the descriptions of the Bisaya from different places! These kind of impressions are hard to come by out here in the "outside" world. :P

I went down to Dadiangas once. I think both Ilonggo (Bacolod/Iloilo) and Cebuano are spoken there. I got a kick out of how people would talk to me in one Pinoy language, then switch to another Pinoy language when they realized I wasn't understanding them. The first was probably Ilonggo or Cebuano, the second probably Tagalog? A few hundred yrs ago, I could've probably gotten around Dadiangas speaking Malay.

Siamiwako,

I was in Zamboanga once for a few days. I tried speaking Hoklo a couple of times with people who looked Hoklo. They didn't reply in Hoklo, but at least one of those times, nearby the Tionghoa school, I got the feeling that they understood me well enough.

I've heard that the CITY of Zamboanga isn't as dangerous as people give it credit for, but parts of the countryside are no-go.

What's going on in Mindanao is a shame. If Rizal was alive today, I doubt he would approve of what the central gov't has done on Mindanao. Unfort. the media everywhere tends to take the Moros to task.

I met some Tausugs in Sandakan. I was told that there were a lot of Hokkiens on Jolo--that they got along really well with the Tausug. I met some Tausug kids who studied political science (!) on Isabela (!). They asked to see some Taiwanese money, so I showed them a TWD 100 bill. One kid studied it for a long time. I would love to have known what he was thinking. I have my guess, though. :mrgreen:

But discussions will be in colloquial Hokkien, just like everyday conversation. Strange isn't it? All I can say is that we were encouraged to speak Hokkien inside school campus back then.

Wow!! Cool. And if I'm not mistaken, this wasn't really that far back? 8)

...

An article on "intsik" and other terms, on the coolest-looking oldschool blog I've ever seen:
http://pinoykasi.homestead.com/files/2001articles/08052001_From_Sangley.htm

Maybe both INTSIK and ENCIK come from Hoklo? My "spidey sense" says the two words were probably related at some pt in the past.

haroldmanila
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby haroldmanila » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:26 pm

I feel that the accent of hoklo is influenced by the different bisaya places. So that if you are talking to an Ilonggo (Iloilo) you would hear his hoklo in Ilonggo tone.

here are some references I gathered from the net regarding the usage of chinese taglish in the philippines. If you guys have time.

Videos :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfQMdQnh4iY&feature=related - Filipino and Chinese culture


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD4nL97CqXQ&feature=related - Chinese Migration into the Philippines-The Story of a Businessman from Hong Kong


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKi29ZkRa4A&feature=related - Big Binondo Food Wok: Mango Tours in Balitang America



Threads : one page only.

http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-21087-p-3.html - Filipino - Chinese students talking about their schools.

http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-389889.html - Filipino - Chinese students talking about their cultural differences.


presently I am finalizing recordings of hoklo with tagalog and english or chinese taglish to be uploaded in youtube. recordings of everyday conversations here in manila from hua-kiaws. you would hear tagalized chinese and tagalized english.

xr
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby xr » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:45 pm

siamiwako wrote:Bantay* - Really (e.g. Ke kh'a bantay kui 價錢真貴)


It is a Min Nan word that I am sure is used at 晋江. I think the Chinese character would be 滿太. I do not know if this is used elsewhere.

I am a Chinoy.

amhoanna
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby amhoanna » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:50 pm

Thanks everybody for your toilet paper comments on the Visayas thread.

In another example of Hokkien at work, yesterday in an industrial section of Pasay I saw a bakery or eatery called Mimipan 美味香 -- Bíbīphang.

Another interesting story. I was at a beauty salon in Metro Manila dengan seorang teman and for a good while a couple of the stylists / siociá there and temanku were talking about me in Tagalog. Now aku nggak bisa bicara bahasa itu, tapi for some reason I always feel like I'm on the edge of understanding. Now at 1 pt they used a word KURIPOT and threw in a mention of "Ilokano" and instinctively I knew they were speculating that I might be stingy (by Pinoy standards), since both the Chinese and the Ilokano (of Ilokos, on the China side of northern Luzon) have a reputation in the islands for being stingy / thrifty. I jumped in the conversation here and turns out that's exactly what they were talking about. ...

I think money -- using it, sharing it, lending it -- has been one of, if not THE, flashpoint in Hoklo - Pinoy relations over the years. It's so "nice" to have the Ilokanos in there as a change-up, though -- Pinoys with the same kind of money sense as Tnglang. They are a natural buffer. :P

Címmá íkeng tuíⁿlải Sãigòng ·a, toà cia KURIPOT tọ kài cèngsiỏng, bián kiaⁿ pháiⁿsè. :mrgreen:

siamiwako
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby siamiwako » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:57 pm

amhoanna wrote:Címmá íkeng tuíⁿlải Sãigòng ·a, toà cia KURIPOT tọ kài cèngsiỏng, bián kiaⁿ pháiⁿsè. :mrgreen:


現在已經???這裡小氣必要正常(?),別怕不好意思。

Pretty bad, talking behind someone else's back.

SimL
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby SimL » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:40 pm

I think "tuíⁿlải" is 回來, and I'd guess from the context that "Sãigòng" is 西貢.

Sadly "cèngsiỏng" is one of the "educated words" which I didn't know in Hokkien (well, the positive side is I know it now). Before that, I would have said "nO2-mə2" (if in a rough part of Penang, and "nO2-məl2" in a less rough part of Penang). But I'm glad to know the "proper" Hokkien word :mrgreen:.


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