Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Locked
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:32 pm

amhoanna wrote:Maybe "Sinitic" here should be qualified with word "urban", or "major"... Great secrets lie in wait in the hills of the south, amigos. And then there's Vietnamese. Just today I've been re-reading John Phan's paper on the origins of the Sino layer in VNmese, and "the split" is one of the foci of the analysis. Sino-VNmese, or most of it anyway, also "split off" kind of early...
Good point. You and Ah-bin are the resident experts in that area, and any stuff you write about this will be read with great interest and enthusiasm. Just forgive me if I forget and slip into the "mainstream model" of thinking every now and again (as I did in my praise of the Wikipedia article on the branching of the sinitic varieties some time back) - I'm very happy to have my vision re-adjusted each time".
amhoanna wrote:VNmese and Hoklo also share a lot of semantics, syntax and vocab. (esp. semantics!), often things that even Canton Cantonese doesn't share.
What? And with both Cantonese and Vietnamese being "yue4" :shock:!?!? :mrgreen:!?!? :shock:!?!? :mrgreen:!?!?
Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Ah-bin » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:53 am

Thank you all for the comments. I think I really need to go to Penang and do a los of asking before I can find out all the answers, though. Here are some things I thought of today...only a bit though.
Just today I've been re-reading John Phan's paper on the origins of the Sino layer in VNmese, and "the split" is one of the foci of the analysis. Sino-VNmese, or most of it anyway, also "split off" kind of early...
Ah, but he doesn't go into detail about the even earlier Sino-Vietnamese, sometimes known as Early Sino-Vietnamese. There is a long list of words or morphemes that have doublets like Hokkien, one descending from an EMC form (Six Dynasties) and one from a LMC (T'ang) form.

Those that are easiest to see are ESV b- corresponding with SV ph- and Hokkien colloquial (EMC) p- with literary (LMC) h-

buồng phòng Pâng = hông 房
bây = phi Pe = hui 飛
bụt = phật Pút = Hút 佛

In Vietnamese in every case the first term was considered vernacular and usually written with a Nôm character.

I notice that some kinds of Hakka also did not develop an f- initial until they had contact with other kinds of Chinese that had it. Jaoping Hakka and Hoiliuk Hakka still say a few words the old way such as phon for 飯. There are more examples of this, but I'll have to go and look for them.
My adopting the -ioⁿ ending for words like 想, 香, 量 and 讓 started off life by emulating the speech of my ex-manager in Penang. Much later, through the influence of dictionaries (the main one being the 《閩南語漳腔辭典》, I discovered that the ‘correct’ 漳州 Ciang-Ciu pronunciation of such words is with the -ioⁿ ending. The habit has stuck thereafter.
The reason why I use -iauⁿ is just because it is unique to Penang, and therefore I feel needs a bit of promotion as a special feature of the dialect not found elsewhere.
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by niuc » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:45 am

Many interesting stuffs to read! :mrgreen: As I am on hurry now, I'd just say that mosquito coil in my variant is bánghunhiuⁿ, a combination of TWH & PH!
Mark Yong
Posts: 684
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by Mark Yong » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:25 am

Ah-bin wrote:
The reason why I use -iauⁿ is just because it is unique to Penang, and therefore I feel needs a bit of promotion as a special feature of the dialect not found elsewhere.
I should be more accurate in my phonology! My saying that I adopted -ioⁿ (i.e. close-mid back rounded) is not quite correct, what I meant was that I use -iƆⁿ (i.e. open-mid back rounded). That more accurately reflects my usage, and sort of comes closer to -iauⁿ.

I guess the reason I gravitated towards -iƆⁿ was because it is actually quite difficult to consistently nasalise a triphtong like –iau (well... at least for me, anyway! :oops: )
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:49 am

Mark Yong wrote:I guess the reason I gravitated towards -iƆⁿ was because it is actually quite difficult to consistently nasalise a triphtong like –iau (well... at least for me, anyway! :oops: )
Amusingly, a (strongly even) nasalized –iau plays a role in quite an important story from my childhood, related to my growing linguistic awareness.

As some regular readers of the Forum may recall, my maternal grandparents are non-Penang Hokkien ("Amoyish") speakers. One day, my maternal grandmother was talking about ginger, and called it (of course) "kiuN1". I was about 9-10 I guess, and (in a nice way!) could sometimes be a cheeky brat, so I decided to tease her. "KiuN, kiuN, kiuN? Ha-mi si kiuN???", I said, in a teasing tone, emphasing the nasality. She was quite amused, and replied just with "KiauN, kiauN, kiauN? Si-mi si kiauN???" She got her own back by not only emphasising the nasality, but also emphasising the -a- (i.e. really s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g out the triphthong).

I suddenly realised: "Oh, there's nothing intrinsically 'nice sounding' or 'weird sounding' in any sounds. I think 'kiuN' sounds funny, but she equally thinks 'kiauN' sounds funny, and there's no reason to think that she or I have a more correct view of things!" [In fact, thinking back, I believe I even "realised" that - if anything - 'kiauN' sounded a lot more peculiar than 'kiuN' (particularly if one emphasises the -a-)!] I look back at this as one of my earliest "linguistic insights" :P.
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by SimL » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:00 pm

amhoanna wrote:
That is to say, there were two "interlocking spirals" cut into the one flat disk, sort of like a complicated version of the yin-yang symbol. One had to carefully "push" the two apart - carefully, in order not to break either one.
Is there any other kind?? :shock: Besides the electric kind?
Haha! You have to forgive my ignorance... Remember that I left "that culture" at the age of 14, and never spent more than 1-2 weeks in Malaysia again.

Many, many things that I knew from the 1960's and 70's no longer exist there. For example, the "meat-safe", which we (very imprecisely) called an "uaN2-tu5" and niuc a "kiam5-tu5".

Another example (I imagine!) is "charcoal irons".

- http://www.google.co.uk/images?q=Charco ... group&sa=X

I hasten to add that they were rare even when I was young, but some of my great-aunts still had them.
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Penang Hokkien Vocabulary Questions

Post by amhoanna » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:00 am

Locked