Pan-Minnanism

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Limet
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:06 pm

Pan-Minnanism

Postby Limet » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:08 am

Don't think this topic has ever been brought up before, but I've always wondered why there hasn't been more pan-Minnan language collaborations as in developing a dictionary, creating a new writing system (I know that peh-oe-ji was used for TC as well as Hoklo, but not sure ab/ Hainanese). There seems to be so many opportunites to bring these dialects(?) closer together. Also another fun idea is creating an artificial Minnan language that uses different aspects of the main Minnan dialects - perhaps Singaporean Hokkien could be used as model bc their Language is quite mixed from what I hear.

Any thoughts?

Ah-bin
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Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby Ah-bin » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:12 am

A pan-Minnan romanisation sounds a bit like those early attempts to create a standard Chinese romanisation that could record southern phonological differences but could also be read as Peking Mandarin e.g. 力 and 立 written as lik and lip but pronounced differently depending on where you are.

The idea of making a pan-Minnan language sounds fun, but you would have to pick and choose from all the different grammatical structures and vocabulary - creating something equally difficult for everyone to learn. There are also three or four quite different types of Hainanese, as well as different versions of the Hoklo spoken on the Leizhou Peninsula and in pockets all along the coast to Amoy.

Here are a couple of the words for "who"
Chit-chui (Penang Hokkien and old Amoy)
SiaN-lang (Taiwanese)
Ti-tiang (Teochiu)
Diang (Bun-chio Hainanese)

Which one to use? Decisions, decisions!

Limet
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:06 pm

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby Limet » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:30 pm

Well, my first question is do we have enough fluent speakers from the different varieties? And do we aim to have all of them equally included OR do we focus on the most populous forms - this could become dicey as certain groups will cry injustice BUT I do think that looking at Singaporean TC/Hokkien would be a good start. Also choosing forms that make internal logical sense. I am a native speaker of Cambodian Teochew.

First thing in working on vocabulary is to compile a list of say common 500-1000 words and then we list out the different forms. Then we can judge from this list using the following logic (please add!):

1. Commonality: Most common across Minnan dialects
2. Consistency: Internally consistent (for example in TC we have ti nang (who), ti kai (which), and tiang si (when). The tiang si would work better as ti si.)
3. Cool factor: Totally subjective, but that's part of the joy I think.

Does anyone know of a tool we can use - perhaps Google Spreadsheets? we need people to agree to work on this project. =)

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby amhoanna » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:42 am

I would totally be on board with "building up" a Teochew-Banlam (Hokkien) mixed language. It wouldn't even be that artificial. Teochew and Banlamese are bā-bābā as-is. The mixed form should be almost instantly intelligible both ways.

Mixed Teochew-Banlam language-forms already exist in at least three places: Singapore, like you guys said; the island of Lâm'ò outside Soaⁿthâu; and Háihong-Soàⁿboé.

I would definitely want to work on this project. I would like nothing better than to build up "an adulterated Hokkien-Teochew mix" and shove it up Harry Lee's---uh, legacy. :mrgreen: We could set up a wiki-type solution. That would be more stable. We should get some tech guys in the mix. :lol:

Limet, do you also speak Khmer? Seems like a cool language.

Limet
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:06 pm

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby Limet » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:25 am

amhoanna wrote:I would totally be on board with "building up" a Teochew-Banlam (Hokkien) mixed language. It wouldn't even be that artificial. Teochew and Banlamese are bā-bābā as-is. The mixed form should be almost instantly intelligible both ways.

In Teochew we say Mangnam. Actually I am in Singapore right now and was in Chinatown looking on as some old Hokkien guys were playing chess, and then when a guy was demonstrating a new-fangled mop and I understood most of what both people said. Pretty good considering that my exposure to Hokkien is not great.

Mixed Teochew-Banlam language-forms already exist in at least three places: Singapore, like you guys said; the island of Lâm'ò outside Soaⁿthâu; and Háihong-Soàⁿboé. Oh I didn't know Lam'o was Hokkien mixed. I knew about Haihong/Soaboe though.

I would definitely want to work on this project. I would like nothing better than to build up "an adulterated Hokkien-Teochew mix" and shove it up Harry Lee's---uh, legacy. :mrgreen: We could set up a wiki-type solution. That would be more stable. We should get some tech guys in the mix. :lol:

Great - glad to hear it. Hopefully some others from this forum will join and pitch in. Who is Harry Lee - I'm new to the forums. Okay, I will look into the wikis out there and set it up and put up the link soon.

Limet, do you also speak Khmer? Seems like a cool language.

I speak a teeny bit of Khmer. I speak more Thai. Thai feels like a distantly "Sino" language with tons of Sanskrit/Pali in it. Khmer on the other hand feels less Chinese, not sure how to discribe it.

amhoanna
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Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby amhoanna » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:02 pm

Thanks, Limet.

Do you use or have you seen Sheik's Cantodict? It's an example of a wiki-style dictionary.

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/scripts/wordlist.htm

I don't know if it's necessarily a good dictionary. It would be even more usable if there was an indication of which literary Cantonese words can also be used in the colloquial, or to what extent. But, just something to chham-kho.

I know what you mean re Khmer vs Thai. I mean, Khmer isn't even tonal. Whereas the Thai tongue mostly dvp'd in what is today Kwongsai 廣西. The possibilities for contact were endless. On a tangent, I met a girl from the coast of Kwongsai the other day and she looked more Thai than the Thais on TV! :lol:

p/s Harry Lee is a.k.a. Lee Kuan Yew.

pp/s Teochew and "Mangnam" are both spoken on Lâm'ò. The Mangnam speakers live on the east shore, the rest of the island speaks Teochew. I think all of the Mangnam speakers speak fluent Teochew, but not v.v. I didn't have much trouble speaking pure Mangnam even in Āuthe̍k on the Teochew side, though, i.e. didn't have to switch to Canto. Looking at data, it seems that Lam'o Teochew and Lam'o Mangnam are really "converged", vocab-wise. I had one extended dialog with a Mangnam speaker. His vocab was very different from any kind of Mangnam I've heard before, with lots of what seemed to be Mandarin loanwords, but I understood him easily.

xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby xng » Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:11 am

amhoanna wrote:
I know what you mean re Khmer vs Thai. I mean, Khmer isn't even tonal. Whereas the Thai tongue mostly dvp'd in what is today Kwongsai 廣西.


It's easier for chinese to learn Thai because of many similar characteristics:

1. Tonal

2. Monosyllabic

3. Loan words from chinese eg. numbers and others listed here

http://www.chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&sid=647e36394654c4e917376b9951fc40ad

4. Grammar wise, chinese and thai are quite similar except for the adjective after the noun difference.

5. The ending consonants are the same ie. limited to m,n,ng, k,t,p :lol:

Limet
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:06 pm

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby Limet » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:01 am

Sorry for not replying earlier. I'm actually from the US and have just returned from a long trip in Asia. Interesting information about Mangnam in Nam'o.

As for the Minnan conlag (constructed language)... first things first. What do we call the language? Also, I'm still working on the wiki so that we have a sandbox to play in.

Is anyone else interested? =)

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby amhoanna » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:17 pm

Limet lú hó! Goá mā sī Amélí-kiáⁿ. I used to enjoy my long trips to Asia so much that I moved here. :lol: Some ideas for names:

Hoklo / Haklau 斈佬

The folks in and around Háihong call their language Ha̍kláu. It ties into the term Ho̍hló that's used in Taiwan.

Actually, that's the only name I can think of. "Teokien" would work in English and Malay. Also "Banlamese", but there would be ambiguity.

HK/TC have cousin languages west of Macau with cool names like 海話 and 黎話. There's also 蛮話 / 蠻話 in some places, I think north of Hokciu. Now those are some cool names for a language.

How about 「海蛮仔話」: the tongue of the sea savages :P

niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby niuc » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:39 pm

amhoanna wrote:How about 「海蛮仔話」: the tongue of the sea savages :P

Amhoanna, while 「海蛮仔話」is indeed a cool name, I think it is too "hot" for many to take it. :lol:

In Bagansiapiapi, Hokkien is often called 白話 'Pe8-ue7' in contrast, not [only] with 文言 'Bun-gian5', but with 國語 'Kok4-gy2'/Mandarin. I like this term, but it can cause misunderstanding since it's also used as another name for Cantonese, Zhuang & Bai.

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby amhoanna » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:50 am

白話 is a cool name for sure.

I think it is too "hot" for many to take it.

:lol:

Jugin
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:40 pm

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby Jugin » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:19 am

白話 really coolest i have ever heard))

Waterclock
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:19 am

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby Waterclock » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:25 am

The problem, I believe, of Pan-Minnanism is that most Teochiu don't see themselves culturally as Minnan. Generally speaking, Teochiu people identify with Guangdong (e.g. the province they are situated in), even though some might be aware that their language is related to Hokkien.

I'm fully behind the effort, however, if someone goes ahead and does this.

Limet
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:06 pm

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby Limet » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:55 am

Firstly, many apologies for being the OP and then basically abandoning this project. I am still down to do this. In the time that has passed since the last post, I have worked on a Teochew language app (You can find it on iTunes and Google Play as: WhatTCSay). Also, life.

Google docs I think would be the easiest to start off with, and then perhaps a wiki.

Anyone still up for this project?

Limet

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Pan-Minnanism

Postby amhoanna » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:01 am

Welcome back. I began learning Teochew recently, the Tiô'iôⁿ style. I've been going over the sound system of Teochew, Hokkien, and Haklau (海陸豐) to see what needs to be done to set up a system of kana (in the style of hiragana) for Hoklo.

What do U mean when U refer to "this project"? Maybe the world could use some kind of a database offering comparative data across all the dialects of Teochew, Hokkien and Haklau. There is also a lack of comprehensive, user-friendly dictionaries for Teochew. Some fieldwork may also be in order, esp. in places like Singapore, Johor, Riau, Chiau An (China). I am no longer interested in creating a mixed dialect per se, but I would be interested in cataloguing what the languages have in common and, above all, in doing a little to nudge the languages toward renewed contact and mixing.


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