Hakka originally from Korea and Japan?

Discussions on the Hakka dialects.
Kowloon Dragon

Hakka originally from Korea and Japan?

Postby Kowloon Dragon » Thu May 13, 2004 9:20 pm

so is this true? i know it is discussed in the other thread but this is its own thread. I am Hakka, and i have friends telling me i look Korean, so i am wondering.

Dylan

Re: Hakka originally from Korea and Japan?

Postby Dylan » Fri May 14, 2004 9:34 pm

No. It is baseless. Looks is no basis for deciding origin.

Dyl.

alex lam

Re: Hakka originally from Korea and Japan?

Postby alex lam » Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:09 pm

hey man,

I'm hakka too... and now i'm studying in Seoul as exchange and some people thought that i was korean... But i think if all asian get naked with no make up, we all look the same man whether u re jap chin or kore or watever...

.

Re: Hakka originally from Korea and Japan?

Postby . » Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:22 am

By the same token, anyone who is white could be Russian if they all stood naked in the middle of Moscow.

Physical characteristics is not a good way of deciding what language they speak, or what food they like to eat!

.

qrasy

Re: Hakka originally from Korea and Japan?

Postby qrasy » Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:02 am

May be that is because we have small eyes and they don't know Asians well.

You can see the difference clearly if you want.

qrasy

Re: Hakka originally from Korea and Japan?

Postby qrasy » Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:25 pm

Hahaha. Koreans very easy to distinguish from Chinese among the "fair Mongoloids"

DarkGhost
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:43 am

Postby DarkGhost » Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:59 am

Rofl, no. Hakka's came from central/north China. Henan, Shaanxi province etc. There's no way Hakkas came from Korea/Japan.

andalas

Hakka is South Chinese

Postby andalas » Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:49 pm

No, no way they came from north central China. I think they come from Southern Chinese.

Thomas Chin

Postby Thomas Chin » Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:02 pm

The present Hakka areas are in the Southern China, but they originated from the Northern parts (as many of the inhabitants of Souther China)

Regards,

Thomas

andalas

Postby andalas » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:56 am

Southern Chinese are a mix of South inhabitants and North comers, but genetics show that they are more of South.

Maybe the south inhabitants also came from north, but I mean the Southern China's inhabitants at the Han age.

nanpasuru
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:34 am

Postby nanpasuru » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:48 am

1. The Hakka are from the south, per DNA evidence. multiple migrations took place including to the "forbidden" islands. The core of Japanese are Hakka decendants from the first established villiage in what is now Fukuoka.

2. A large number of Koreans are part Japanese. They don't like to admit, but there was quite a bit of intermixing under Japanese rule, and it shows. physically and gentically(men only).

3. You are probably seeing the result of two of many migrations colliding as a Hakka Ngin walking down the street in ChoSen Ken.

4. Anyone who state that you cannot tell Asians or any other group apart from physical features is incorrect.

andalas

Postby andalas » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:37 am

1.More precisely, mixed North South with larger South percentage

2.The Y-gene of the man of Korean and Japanese actually represents the South East Asian population, and so does all Chinese. Their Y-gene is considerably different from Siberian, and very different from majority of Mongolian.

GablurW
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Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:52 pm

Postby GablurW » Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:04 pm

'Chinese' is more of a national identity rather than an ethnic one. What we classify as 'Chinese' are not really homogeneous people in terms of ethnicity. The Hakka people who have migrated to the Guandong/Fujian region, and also Taiwan/HongKong and many South East Asian countries such as Singapore does resembles at least in terms of facial features with modern Japaneses, and differes from Chinese in other parts of China, where there are also certain groups resembling indigenous South East Asians, and groups with their distinct facial features, culture, and Chinese dilects orginated from their respective orginal language spoken in ancient times.

Sun Wukung
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Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:29 pm
Location: Meiguo
Contact:

Postby Sun Wukung » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:54 pm

Last time I checked Hakka meant stranger and thus not from any part of what is now the country of China (the Former People's Republic of China) the 中人國. I won't tell you what those characters mean here because I already have. Ha ha. 哈哈!Other than that there is little to suspect that they are from either another part of China or from a 'nobody cares about' section of Asia.
No space for sig right now. Get Hanyu sig soon enough, comrade.

GablurW
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Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:52 pm

Postby GablurW » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:37 pm

The Japaneses are probably a mix of Chinese (mainly of the Hakka ethnic origin) and Korean immigrants, and of the native/aboriginal Jumon living in that Island.

http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/history.htm#japan


Hakka and Japanese Culture

Hakka culture might be a key component of Japanese culture.

It is hard not to notice that spoken Hakka dialect/language and Japanese language are closer than Mandarin and Japanese. Certain Japanese also resemble Shandong Chinese, distinct from the Ainu features of Hokkaido. Some Japanese friends point out that Hakkas look like Japanese. In fact the strong adherance to tradition and stubbornness are very characteristic of both Hakka and Japanese. The following is an account that could provide some support to the link between Hakka and Japanese culture.

Qin dynasty, Xu Fu, Yamoto, and Yayoi culture

The earliest record of Chinese travelling to Japan was in Qin dynasty when Qin Shihuangdi sent Xu Fu with a company of 3000 boys and girls to obtain longevity medicine. They started out from Shandong and reached what they called Peng Lai (Ying Zhou) which is Kyushu today. In Kyushu, there are significant traces of Xu Fu and his company including Xu Fu's tomb. Xu Fu's landing place should be around Fukuoka (The Hill of Fu), which was named in memory of him.

To be entrusted by Qin Shihuangdi with such an enormous task at that time, Xu Fu at 36 years of age was obviously a very capable person who was also higher up in the official rank. One theory is that he actually used this proposal to leave Qin. He brought a whole fleet of ships fully loaded with all kinds of supplies. It is also clear that Xu Fu had travelled back to China more than once to gather supplies. So, likely he brought more people over for the long trip. The crew he brought over stayed in Japan and became the Yamato clan. That is why some Japanese look like Shandong people, which should be Han/Hakka in genetic trait.

The history of Japan is very vague as to how the empire started. Only legends exist. Japanese culture has two major components: The Jomon culture and the Yayoi culture. The native Jomon culture was based on hunting and fishing, dating back to 10,000 years ago.

The Yayoi culture, which suddenly emerged around 250 BC - 250 AD as a very advanced culture, bears all the marks of Qin/Han culture including paddy rice cultivation, bronze mirror, coins, bronze weapons, bells, etc. The three major symbols of the Japanese Kingdom : bronze mirror, sword, and the royal seal stone are exactly the same as the Qin symbols. With no archaeological precedent of a gradual evolution, Yayoi culture has to be introduced from outside, and the most probable source was China. The Yayoi culture spread northeastward towards the Kanto plain and eventually became the mainstream of the Japanese culture.

Japan's celebration of the "birthyear" of Shen Wu Tian Huang (Ten-no) was held every 50 years (last held 1930 and 1980) as a very sacred ceremony simultaneously in a memorial celebration of Xu Fu. The beginning of Shen Wu Tian Huang was in the same time period of Xu Fu's landing in 219 BC. So these two are too coincidental not to be related. Shen Wu Tian Huang is supposed to be the Father of the Japanese kingdom. The celebration actually could be for the birthyear of the Empire rather than a person.

Did Xu Fu start out from Shandong or Guangdong?

There is also a hypothesis that Xu Fu started out from Guangdong because the spoken Japanese sounds like Guangdong dialect more than Mandarin. However, Qin Shihuangdi's active area was in the north. It would be hard to trust someone so far from the south. The climbing of Taishan (Shandong) by Qin Shihuangdi was well documented by Li Si's stone engravings on Taishan. So, Shandong is a place frequented by QSHD. It is natural that he might want to watch the ships set sail to fetch the longevity medicine too. As pointed out by a netter friend, Shandong dialect actually has some similarities to Hakka (see language page). If Hakka was indeed the official language commonly used in Qin-Tang dynasties, then that was the language Xu Fu and his crew spoke. So, it would be natural for the Japanese spoken language to bear some resemblance of Hakka.

For detailed evidence of Xu Fu's excursion to Japan, please consult a book by Yu Jin Hong : "Xu2 Fu2 Dong1 Du4 Zhi1 Mi2 Xin1 Tan4" (A New Study on the Riddle of the East Expedition by Xu Fu), Jiangsu People's Press. 1990.

Buddhism, Wei - Tang period

Buddhism was spread to Japan during Wei-Jin and Tang period. There were more and more interactions between the two countries. In Wei Zhi (history of Wei) the word "Wo" (Japanese "Wa", Mandarin "He") first appeared to represent the Japanese kingdom.

Hakka language was highly likely the official language in Tang dynasty (see language section about Tang poems). In Japan, much of the government bureaucratic system, including the names of bureaus still use the system developed from Qin-Han to Tang period.

Examples of ancient Han/Hakka culture and Japanese culture

Japanese culture retains many of the ancient Chinese custom including deep bowing, seating on tatami with low table (only after Song did high chairs become popular in China), the women's dress and headdress, the way pipa ( a pluck string musical instrument, Japanese call it biwa) is held at an angle rather than upright. These can be easily verified in the murals of Dun Huang, which were done from Wei-Jin to Tang. In terms of calligraphy, the early Japanese masters favored Wang Xi-Zhi (Jin) while the contemporaries follow Yan Zhen-qing (Tang).



Its highly likely, since these people orginated from the northern parts of China and have migrated towards south over the years. Japanese and Korean people share more similarities with the northern Chinese than those of the southern parts of China. Some of the Taiwanese people were also said to share similarity facial characteristics with the Japanese. This is not surprising since they are largely made up of Hakka and Fujian Chinese immigrants.

Here's an abstract from one study:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... xed=google

Hakka is a distinctive Han Chinese population in Southern China speaking Hakkanese. The origin of Hakka has been controversial. In this report, we analyzed Y chromosomal markers in 148 Hakka males. Principle component analysis of Y-SNP haplotype distribution shows Hakka is clusteed strongly with the Han in Northern China, and is also close to She, a Hmong-Mien-speaking population, while the general Southern Han is fairly close to Daic populations. Admixture analysis revealed that the relative genetic contribution 80.2% (Han), 13% (She) and 6.8% (Kam) in Hakka. The network of Y-STR haplotype of M7 individuals in all concerned populations suggested two possible origins of Hmong-Mien contribution in Hakka: One is from Hubei and the other is from Canton. The Kam contribution in Hakka is likely from Kan-Yue, the ancient aborigine of Kiangsi (Jiangxi). The frequency of 9bp-deletion in Region V of mitochondrial DNA of Hakka is 19.7%, which is quite close to She but far from Han. We therefore concluded that genetically the majority of Hakka gene pool shall come from North Han with She contributing the most among all non-Han groups. Regarding the Hmong-Mien character of Hakkanese, the genetic structure of Hakka shows their core may be Kim-man, the ancient Hmong-Mien. We hypothesized that a great number of Han people from North China join this population in succession. Southern Chinese dialects, such as Hakkanese may also be those languages of Southern aborigines at first, and turn to extant appearance under the continuance effect of Northern Chinese.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... xed=google


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