Correct way to say "money" in Cantonese?

Discussions on the Cantonese language.
Dracil

Correct way to say "money" in Cantonese?

Post by Dracil » Fri Sep 28, 2001 1:10 am

I've been looking at www.mycantonese.com's lessons. I cross-referenced their spelling with http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton2/ and I found something peculiar. The way they're pronouncing "money" seems to be "cin2" at http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Canton2/, but that site says money should be pronounced either "cin4" or "zin2"... So which one should I be using? The phrase in the lesson was "ngo5 mou5 chin2" (I don't have money) if context matters. Thanks.
money lover

Re: Correct way to say "money" in Cantonese?

Post by money lover » Fri Sep 28, 2001 8:32 am

chin
Dracil

Which tone?

Post by Dracil » Fri Sep 28, 2001 10:35 am

Chin2 or Chin4? That classroom said it was Chin2, but this other site says it's Chin4 or Zin2
cin or zin?

Re: Correct way to say "money" in Cantonese?

Post by cin or zin? » Fri Sep 28, 2001 5:46 pm

dont know what the pronunciation system mycantonese.com was using, so cant comment on that. cuhk's is jyutping system.
for "i dont have money" in jyutping system,
formal - "ngo5 mou4 cin4"
informal - "ngo5 mou5 cin2"
dont even knwo the existence of zin2, sorry:(
Dracil

Re: Correct way to say "money" in Cantonese?

Post by Dracil » Fri Sep 28, 2001 8:36 pm

Ah, I see. So the difference here was formal vs. informal. Thanks!
Does cuhk contain the colloquial Cantonese characters? For example "mou", or "kui" as opposed to "ta" (for him/her)
I tried doing a search before, but don't think I found the characters... is there a site with a list of these special characters?
mou5 keoi5

u talking 'bout -> mou5 & keoi5?

Post by mou5 keoi5 » Sat Sep 29, 2001 3:22 am

dont know if cuhk contain all colloquial cantonese characters, sorry. But... were u looking for the following characters?
mou5 @ http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin ... ery=%c9%4e
keoi5 @ http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/cgi-bin ... ery=%ca%5c
Dracil

Interesting....

Post by Dracil » Sat Sep 29, 2001 7:52 am

I thought these characters weren't part of the standard Chinese character set, yet.... they're viewable. Thanks for the links though! Had trouble finding the words, especial Keoi5, which I'd been spelling kui.
Eugene Morrow

I'm confused

Post by Eugene Morrow » Thu Oct 04, 2001 1:47 am

Dracil,
I'm totally confused about the other answers to your question.
A Cantonese course I am learning from (FSI - see my notes on Tape courses answering a question from Arnistkokid on this forum). FSI says that chin (money) is pronounced with a mid rising tone (like the number 9: gau). The FSI course is from 1970, so pronunciation may have changed.
So in theory I would write it as chin9.
I can't understand cin4 and cin2. Does anyone know why FSI seems to say something so different?
Eugene Morrow
Dracil

Hmm....

Post by Dracil » Fri Oct 05, 2001 3:48 am

Well, here's what I know. A lot of the online resources you find use the 6 tone system, which I think is simplified from the 9 tone system. However, asking some of my Cantonese friends, they say they they speak with 9 tones (both have been living in HK until last year, when they moved to college here in the US), which is what you're familiar with. Personally, I'd prefer learning words through 9 tones too, but when all you got is 6 tones.... what I do now is double-check the words I learn with them.
Helmut
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:53 pm

Re: I'm confused

Post by Helmut » Fri Oct 05, 2001 10:35 am

Hi Eugene,
the confusion seems to be caused mainly by different ways, how to identify tones.
The spoken ("informal") Cantonese word for money (Yale: chin, Jyutping: cin) has the same tone as the word for the number nine. No change since the 1970s.
Modern books refer to that tone usually as tone number 2. Some call it "high rising tone". FSI may have its own numbering convention. What is meant is the tone that rises to the highest level.
Someone wrote, that the formal word is spoken with tone number 4. Also in spoken Cantonese, this word is switching to tone number 4 in certain combinations. I guess that is because of the tone switch phenomenon.
Tone number 4 means the one departing at the low level and going even further down.
Hope that helps
Helmut
Eugene Morrow

I need to learn JyutPing

Post by Eugene Morrow » Mon Oct 08, 2001 11:08 pm

Helmut,
My problem is that I do not understand the numbering system in JyutPing. I thought that cin2 meant that the tone was the same as for the number 2 (yih) which is a low level tone. Now I realise that if tone 2 in JyutPing is mid rising then cin2 is what FSI has taught me.
I can see that JyutPing is better for the internet because you can type it in normal text like this. I prefer Yale because I know it so well and I can read it out loud fluently, but I have yet to find a way to easily type it on this forum.
Thanks for explaining it to me.
Cheers,
Eugene
Helmut
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:53 pm

Re: I need to learn JyutPing

Post by Helmut » Fri Oct 12, 2001 11:19 pm

: My problem is that I do not understand the numbering system in JyutPing.
Tone 1: high level flat (or falling)
Tone 2: rising to high level
Tone 3: mid level flat
Tone 4: low level falling
Tone 5: rising to mid level
Tone 6: low level flat
This system is also used by other romanization systems, e.g. Lau. I have seen also Yale versions using it instead of accents.
: I prefer Yale because I know it so well and I can read it out loud fluently, but I have yet to find a way to easily type it on this forum.
Let's try to type it. If you can read this
"Néih haih ou jàu yàhn."
then I tell you how I did it. If not, forget it. The problem is not only writing the accents, it is also for the other people reading them. E.g. I cannot see them, if I switched on Chinese character viewing.
Helmut
Eugene Morrow

Yale typing

Post by Eugene Morrow » Mon Oct 15, 2001 6:08 am

Helmut,
I can read the Yale accents! Here is your text:
: "Néih haih ou jàu yàhn."
How did you do it? Is there available a flat bar above a vowel to show the high level tone?
Thanks for showing it can be done,
Eugene
Helmut
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:53 pm

Re: Yale typing

Post by Helmut » Mon Oct 15, 2001 10:14 pm

Hi Eugene,
sorry, all I can do is putting rising or falling accents on top of a vowel.
In a six-tone scheme, you can use the falling accent for the high level tone, though.
Another problem, you cannot put an accent on top of 'm' or 'ng'.
Here is how I did it (on the English version of both Windows 95 and Windows NT).
1. Install once:
In the Start menu, go to Settings, Control Panel, Keyboard, Language.
Click the Add... button and select a German keyboard layout from the list. Click OK. Ready.
2. How to use:
Press Alt-Shift to switch from English to German keyboard layout.
Press '=' and then the vowel to get the vowel with rising accent.
Press '+' and then the vowel to get the vowel with falling accent.
For normal letters, just use the keyboard as usually. Only 'y' and 'z' have exchanged places.
Press Alt-Shift again to switch back to English keyboard layout.
You may try other keyboard settings to find something better, but I doubt that there is a reasonable way how to do flat bar or accents on top of 'm' or 'ng'. This simply does not exist in any language, so it is not foreseen in the standard fonts. There are special fonts for pinyin which have the flat bar, but this is used for Word. You cannot use that for internet browsers.
Have fun
Helmut
Eugene Morrow

Typing Yale and limitations of Yale

Post by Eugene Morrow » Tue Oct 16, 2001 11:30 pm

Helmut,
Thanks for the information! I do not have time to try this straight away - I will be able to try it next week.
I was very interested in your answer to another question on this forum where you discussed the limitations of Yale. You mentioned the eu vowel sound has to variations: eo and oe in JyutPing.
Can you give an example of Yale spellings that have the different pronunciations of eu?
Also, I have another question: if JyutPing is rare in textbooks, how did you learn it? Can you recommend a book?
Thanks for your knowledge,
Eugene Morrow
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