Korean invented chinese language

Discuss the Chinese language.
Mark
Posts: 134
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Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by Mark » Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:35 pm

Sunset: not at all true. Korean and Japanese are Altaic languages heavily influenced in their later stages, but most of the languages is still Altaic.
chan

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by chan » Mon Oct 28, 2002 11:54 am

Peter North you are pretty funny... i'm not even full chinese and i know about china's history? are you korean or something? i have alot of korean friends and i have never heard them said chinese borrowed characters or language from korean.. its the opposite way around buddy... chinese is an original language written and oral...
James Campbell

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by James Campbell » Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:37 am

no one invented language

sorry to cause you vexation about this...

the Koreans didn't invent Korean;
the Chinese didn't invent Chinese;
the Koreans didn't invent Chinese; and
the Chinese didn't invent Korean.

In the beginning...

there were Altaic grunts and there were Sino-Tibetan grunts. These grunts differed already because they were separated by time and a distance farther than a prehistoric man would dare venture, so that there was no contact between these two grunting groups of prehistoric people (you know, they didn't have cellphones or TVs and stuff like that). (And this point in time might already be halfway through the history of language development.)

A group of Altaic-grunting people traveled far to the east very early on. They were split among themselves by distance and seas. Some grunts developed into Manchu grunts, others into Korean and Japanese grunts. They have been separated from the other Altaic-grunting peoples for so long, it's hard to make a solid connection, nonetheless, their relation is quite likely.

The other group grunting in Sino-Tibetan also got split up over a vast area. The Sinitic grunts developed over time into a Chinese language. They recorded their speech and ideas in bone engravings that matched the monosyllabic nature of their speech. Over time this expanded and reformed until it developed into Chinese characters, specifically fit for the Chinese language.

Meanwhile, the peoples grunting in Korean and Japanese eventually developed into two distinct languages. However, they had not developed a way to record their speech and did not make such bone engravings like the Chinese did. But with civilization and the spreading of the three populations, they soon came into contact with each other and the Koreans and Japanese thought the Chinese way of writing was a good idea, and so they learned it and used it where they lived too.

But both these Korean and Japanese speaking peoples soon realized that not only was their languages polysyllabic, unlike Chinese, but the Chinese characters didn't match their language well. The Koreans worked hard to create a writing that would work for their own language, and it wasn't until the 20th century that it got full acceptance, but by that time so many monosyllabic-based words (including 2-syllable words) from Chinese were being used in the language (even everybody adopted Chinese names!!!), they also kept the Chinese characters, even if not using them at the very minimum continuing to educate their children.

The Japanese also developed a writing system of their own, one adapted from the general shapes of the Chinese characters, since they weren't as creative as the Koreans or the Chinese. They even thought the Chinese characters were so great that they enforced them to fit into the rules of their own language, along with all the other scripts they developed, and they even enforced them onto their local names, even though these names are unrelated to Chinese. In fact, many grown Japanese are even confused to the point that they tell their western colleagues that these characters are indeed of Japanese origin.

The Koreans also get confused about this matter as well, and although the characters clearly do not fit the grammar, syntax, or syllabic nature of Japanese and Korean, they are still greatly confused by this matter. The Uyghurs have a similar grammar, syntax, and syllabic nature as Korean and Japanese do, but they abandoned the idea of applying Chinese characters for writing their language.

In fact, it was the Chinese that were the creative ones. Not only did they invent their writing, but paper, (ink?), printing, medicine, (and does anybody have a more expanded list of all the thousands of inventions?), and one I saw recently, an object that detects earthquakes and their magnitude. Chinese inventions can literally fill volumes of books. How do the Koreans and Japanese compare?

Let me ask you: is it just me or are the Koreans trying really hard to claim to have invented something? Do I feel a little bit of jealousy here? Or even copyright infringement, false claims?? All the things they're good at manufacturing such as cars, ships, electronics, were mostly invented in the west already. The only thing I can think of is basically their own cuisine and Korea's hangul. And then, these aren't things that people use much around the world, not like cars and electronics. Although, I do hear westerners say "let's get some Chinese take-out", I rarely hear "let's go have Japanese" or "let's go have Korean" or "let's get sushi" or "let's get kimchi".

So even in the area of cuisine, it seems that Chinese has better standing throughout the world than Korean or Japanese does.

In conclusion...

I don't think the Chinese get enough recognition for their inventions. That includes Chinese characters. Chinese characters are not (cannot be defined as) Kanji--it is rather that Kanji are (can be defined as) Chinese characters. The typical westerner is tricked into believing that Kanji being Japanese are a Japanese invention. Even I was tricked this way until I investigated. They may have changed the look of a few here, and added a few there, but they're not the invention of the Japanese. This is the same for Korean too.

I even heard once, but I cannot prove it or give the source, that the Chinese were on the verge of inventing a car many many centuries ago while Europe was still in the dark ages and suffering from plagues and death, but the technology didn't advance far enough due to political unrest. Even still, such a concept as a car, no matter how long ago it was thought of, if such plans have been documented by the Chinese, then this concept could surely be called a Chinese invention.

So I don't give a care about the names dongyi, shang, dawenkou, or whatever, the Koreans cannot be claimed responsible for any of the Chinese language or inventions. A Korean should not try and deceive people by digging so far into history so that others will be easily tricked into believing they are a true race of innovation. They are the most backward, selfish, inward looking people I have ever met, and until recently have always been against any development happening in the world outside of Korea. They have always positioned themselves as the "little brother" of China (read: 小弟弟, hah--look at the shape of their peninsula), and throughout history they always ran to the "real and only" recognized emporer in China for help and guidance. China has had open communication with the west through the silk road and with the wise teachings from India for millennia. They have been open to the world, and have been innovative themselves providing their inventions to the world. Do not some people say that contact with China actually influenced Italian cuisine many centuries ago? What did Korea and Japan contribute to Europe? Hangul? Kimono?

For all the pride running through the blood veins of the Korean, if the Chinese had an ounce of it, they would be a greater nation than they are. How could they let the Japanese trample them in WWII? The Chinese should rise up and be proud of everything that is Chinese, and do not let the Koreans and Japanese take the credit. Maybe they should have taxed the Japanese and Koreans for using their characters, or force them to abandon the script if they would not be willing to be part of their empire. But that goes to prove to you how benevolent the Chinese actually are and that they were willing to allow the outer lying barbarian tribes attempt to educate themselves. Besides, it was their forefathers such as Confucius, Mencius and many others teaching and spreading humane values, all such wise forefathers that the outer lying barbarians lacked.

Nobody invented language. There was a natural need for communication and it evolved naturally.
James Campbell

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by James Campbell » Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:45 am

And I forgot to mention, as an answer westerners do not find a use for Hangul or kimonos at all. But you can find at this forum that so many westerners WANT the Chinese characters, to have them tattooed on their bodies. I never heard of westerners wanting HANGUL or HIRAGANA tattooed on their bodies. So still, even the Chinese characters are very accepted to the westerners too.

I even heard that the Korean government was trying so hard for the international community to accept their invention that they tried to convince small native tribes to use Hangul to write their language, but I never heard of this actually happening.
Thomas Chan

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by Thomas Chan » Tue Oct 29, 2002 2:27 pm

James Campbell wrote:
> And I forgot to mention, as an answer westerners do not find
> a use for Hangul or kimonos at all. But you can find at this
> forum that so many westerners WANT the Chinese characters, to
> have them tattooed on their bodies. I never heard of
> westerners wanting HANGUL or HIRAGANA tattooed on their
> bodies. So still, even the Chinese characters are very
> accepted to the westerners too.

I've also never seen anyone want hangul or hiragana, nor katakana
for that matter, but I have seen (Chinese) bopomofo on baseball caps,
e.g., two bopomofo letters "u" and "ai" for "wai" (the pronunciation of
the letter "Y") meant to signify the New York Yankees baseball team.
(Haven't seen bopomofo tattoos yet, though...)

But overwhelmingly, people do want Chinese characters, even accepting
incorrect translations or poorly drawn characters. I do notice that a sizable
number of the translations and glyph forms of the characters have a
Japanese bias, perhaps because information about Japanese is more
accessible, but at the same time, hiragana and katakana are shunned
even though that may be the typical way of writing a particular word in
Japanese. e.g., what foreigner interested in Japanese things hasn't
desired at some point to "write their name in kanji", when writing it in
katakana is the usual thing to do?


Thomas Chan
tc31@cornell.edu
Thomas Chan

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by Thomas Chan » Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:38 pm

James Campbell wrote:
> But both these Korean and Japanese speaking peoples soon
> realized that not only was their languages polysyllabic,
> unlike Chinese, but the Chinese characters didn't match their
> language well.

King Sejong 世宗 quite eloquently makes that point of Chinese characters
not fitting the Korean language (so the populace couldn't properly express
themselves) in his preface to the _Hunmin Jongum_ 訓民正音. (Somewhere,
I have this quote jotted down somewhere. But it doesn't matter--Sejong
wrote it in classical Chinese...)


> The Koreans worked hard to create a writing
> that would work for their own language, and it wasn't until
> the 20th century that it got full acceptance

And until then, that writing system was called things like onmun 諺文
'common writing', because it wasn't thought to be prestigious as writing in
Chinese characters.


> but by that
> time so many monosyllabic-based words (including 2-syllable
> words) from Chinese were being used in the language (even
> everybody adopted Chinese names!!!), they also kept the
> Chinese characters, even if not using them at the very
> minimum continuing to educate their children.

The wholesale Korean adoption of Chinese words and names is
pretty interesting--the earliest rulers of Silla 新羅 used to have titles like
"nisagum" 尼師今 or "maripkan" 麻立干, but one day, they suddenly became
monosyllabic "wang" 王. Guess what, "wang" turns out to be the Chinese
word for 'king'. :/


> The Japanese also developed a writing system of their own,
> one adapted from the general shapes of the Chinese
> characters, since they weren't as creative as the Koreans or
> the Chinese. They even thought the Chinese characters were so
> great that they enforced them to fit into the rules of their
> own language, along with all the other scripts they
> developed, and they even enforced them onto their local
> names, even though these names are unrelated to Chinese. In
> fact, many grown Japanese are even confused to the point that
> they tell their western colleagues that these characters are
> indeed of Japanese origin.

And yet, they will still call them "kanji" 漢字, which very obviously means
"Chinese characters"...


> In fact, it was the Chinese that were the creative ones. Not
> only did they invent their writing, but paper, (ink?),
> printing, medicine, (and does anybody have a more expanded
> list of all the thousands of inventions?),

The best would be Joseph Needham, et al.'s multi-volume _Science
and Civilisation in China_ series. If that's too much information (or too
expensive), there's the abridged _The Shorter Science and Civilisation in
China_ series. And if that's still too long or expensive, there's Robert
Temple's 248 page _The Genius of China_ (London: Prion Books Limited,
1986), which may be regarded as an even more abridged version.

Mind you, I do find Temple a bit too Sinocentric at times and dismissive of
Western achievements, while at the same time claiming some mere
designs--that's like crediting Leonardo Da Vinci for the helicopter instead
of Sikorsky. Or a mention of some object in an ancient text is taken to be
proof of invention--that's like crediting sci-fi author Robert Heinlein for
things in his novels that others later worked out and built for real.


> and one I saw
> recently, an object that detects earthquakes and their
> magnitude. Chinese inventions can literally fill volumes of
> books. How do the Koreans and Japanese compare?

I've heard of that earthquake detecting device--a pot that drops balls
into the mouths of frog sculptures, and is supposed to show you from
which direction it is coming from. But supposedly it cannot distinguish
sheared waves from direct ones.

It is somewhat pointless to argue these things, because few are willing
to honestly analyze the successes and shortcomings. e.g., the Chinese
wheelbarrow design may carry more weight, but a pro-Chinese debater
will conveniently not mention to non-Chinese that it is not as stable as a
Western wheelbarrow design (and of course, a non-Chinese doesn't know
that fact, so he doesn't question). We must also be careful of Chinese
writings about things, since it reflects a Chinese viewpoint--we know now
that crossbows weren't a Chinese invention but from some of those
"barbarians in the south", but earlier Chinese and Western authors didn't
know that from Chinese writings on the subject, who attribute it to a
mythicalized Zhuge Liang. (Of course, we are unfortunately very
dependent on Chinese writings on any early topic, because no one else
had writing to document what was going on.)

But I think first concept and invention also matters little if they are
forgotten, or if the invention isn't capitalized upon. Sure, Zheng He had
ships bigger than Columbus, but the Ming government axed the naval
exploration program. The Chinese had paddle-boat technology but forgot
it, and were surprised when the English showed up with their steam
paddle-boat gunboats.


> Let me ask you: is it just me or are the Koreans trying
> really hard to claim to have invented something? Do I feel a
> little bit of jealousy here? Or even copyright infringement,
> false claims?? All the things they're good at manufacturing
> such as cars, ships, electronics, were mostly invented in the
> west already. The only thing I can think of is basically
> their own cuisine and Korea's hangul.

It's still debated whether or not hangul are purely a Korean invention.
The Koreans knew of Chinese writing (why else would they arrange
hangul letters in a square block for each syllable?) and Chinese
phonological models, and supposedly they had also known of other
alphabetic designs like the Tibetan-designed Mongolian Phagspa.


> And then, these aren't
> things that people use much around the world, not like cars
> and electronics. Although, I do hear westerners say "let's
> get some Chinese take-out", I rarely hear "let's go have
> Japanese" or "let's go have Korean" or "let's get sushi" or
> "let's get kimchi".

And I read (from Korean linguists) that "kimchi" too isn't a native Korean
word--it's 沈菜 (formerly "timchoy"), and the native word is "ci". (I don't
know enough Korean to evaluate this conclusion independently.) "sushi"
is a preserved archaic Japanese word, but unnaturally forced to be
written in Chinese characters as 壽司.


Thomas Chan
tc31@cornell.edu
KP

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by KP » Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:34 pm

James Campbell:

Just wondering if you knew the origins of the why the Vietnamese refer to Korea as "Dai Han"? My spelling may be wrong. From what I can see, this translates as "Great Han" or "Big Han"?

Also, why do Vietnamese refer to Vietnamese as "Peanut"? I believe the romanized pronunciation was "Dang Gong". I'm pretty certain I'm a off on that. Hopefully it makes enough sense as to what I'm talking about. I was wondering if maybe this has any relation to when Viets were referred to as the "Lac" people. "Lac" sounds similar to the word we use for peanuts.


Thomas Chan:

Just wondering where you learned that the crossbow was a "southern barbarian" invention? I too was beginning to suspect this when reading a book called "The Birth of Vietnam". But then I remember some people mentioning that Chinese have crossbow artifacts dating back to 6th Century B.C. Any sources you have would be much appreciated.
Thomas Chan

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by Thomas Chan » Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:17 pm

KP wrote:
> Just wondering where you learned that the crossbow was a
> "southern barbarian" invention? I too was beginning to
> suspect this when reading a book called "The Birth of
> Vietnam". But then I remember some people mentioning that
> Chinese have crossbow artifacts dating back to 6th Century
> B.C. Any sources you have would be much appreciated.

Taylor's book is one of them, but also Laurent Sagart's _The Roots of
Old Chinese_ (Amsterdam: John Benjamins, 1999) and Jerry Norman and
Tsu-lin Mei's article "The Austroasiatics in Ancient South China: Some
Lexical Evidence" (Monumenta Serica 32 (1976): 274-301). Both provide
very interesting accounts of supposed "Chinese" words, technology,
and practices that are in origin not Chinese. (In the past, people assumed
the Chinese were always the donors and everyone else the recipients,
but the reality is sometimes different.)


Thomas Chan
tc31@cornell.edu
Kobo-Daishi

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by Kobo-Daishi » Wed Oct 30, 2002 12:19 pm

Dear KP,

The Korean ethnic group is called 韓 (Mand: han2, Cant: hon4) or Hàn in Sino-Vietnamese.

If you’re computer cannot view Unicode click on the link below to see the character for the Korean ethnic group:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/vi ... in,english

The Chinese ethnic group is called 漢 (Mand: han4, Cant: hon3) or hán in Sino-Vietnamese.

Click the link to see the character for the Chinese ethnic group:

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/vi ... in,english

The full name for South Korea is 大韓民國 (Mand: da4 han2 min2 guo2, Cant: daai6 hon4 man4 gwok3).

In Sino-Korean it would be 대한민국 (dae han min kuk).
In Sino-Vietnamese it would be Đại Hàn Dân Quốc.

So Đại Hàn is just short for Đại Hàn Dân Quốc.

Why don’t they add Sino-Vietnamese readings to the character dictionary at this site. Are you reading this Thomas Chin?

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
KP

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by KP » Wed Oct 30, 2002 7:03 pm

Thanks for pointing that out Kobo-Daishi.

So the Koreans are Han, but not the same Han as Chinese Han right? I always thought there was a connection there, but I guess not.
James Campbell

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by James Campbell » Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:06 am

KP & Kobodaishi,

I was late to the response...
But exactly right. Daehan Minkuk is their official name. And I never heard of the Chinese referring to themselves as "Da-Han4", so even without tone, there's not much confusion.

Thomas Chin:
Yes, please add the SV readings to the site. That would be great.
And some of your dialect listings could be updated (I know you're linking to an outside database (HK?), but much of it could be redone, overhauled, and updated if they haven't started already).

Thomas Chan:
Thanks for all that input. I knew somebody knew all the specific references.

James
KP

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by KP » Thu Oct 31, 2002 6:47 pm

Well I made the connection from knowing that Dai Han was Korea. I've never actually heard the word "HAN" as in Han Dynasty in Vietnamese. So I wasn't aware of the different tone or accent. I only knew the romanized spelling of both. Sorry :)

Anyways, can anyone tell me what page in Taylors book states that the crossbow was invented by the Southern "Barbarians"?

My teacher also claimed that rice was first cultivated in S.E. Asia as well. But when searching on the net about the crossbow, many sites claim that the Chinese had both these since 6th century BC.
Sum Won

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by Sum Won » Sat Nov 02, 2002 7:44 pm

How does rice tie into crossbows? Is this from a legend of some sort?

Anyway, when I first began looking at cultures of the ancient south, I stumbled upon a site that discussed about the origins of rice seeds and rice cultivation. Both were discovered to have originated in the HuNan region, I think. I'm pretty tired and lazy now, so I don't feel like looking for the site again --it's been two years since I visited the site, so I'm not sure if it's still up, or if they made any new discoveries-- but I'm sure you can find it through www.google.com and type in something like "origins of rice".
KP

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by KP » Sat Nov 02, 2002 8:00 pm

Rice is just one of the other "inventions" that are credited to Chinese, that I've heard different accounts of who are the true inventors, or cultivators in this case. No direct connection with crossbows other than that.
Mark
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:53 pm
Contact:

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Post by Mark » Wed Nov 06, 2002 7:17 pm

I've seen people with Hiragana and Katakana tattoos... it's funny! rofl. (katakana looks so awkward when written on peoples' bodies, I never liked that script much)

Hey, what about writing simplified chinese on your body? hahaha.

Well... anyhow... Westerners use plenty of modern Japanese inventions. Sony's electronics, Nintendo's (entertainment) electronics, many other things that were actually _invented_ in Japan. (if I was listening correctly in shakai last week, the first gun was invented in Japan, even though the first gunpowder was in China)

And then there's Samsung... lol. Weren't they the ones who invented DVDs or something like that?

Ooh, ooh! But the Chinese did invent paper...
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